What did we learn from ESEA Finals?

2-7-2014 18:30

In this article we take a look at some of the most important lessons we learned from the past weekend's ESEA Invite Season 16 Global Finals.

iBUYPOWER defended their season 15 championship this past weekend, taking down OverGaming, Virtus.pro, and compLexity twice to net them $20,000 and another ESEA title.

Their fellow countrymen compLexity were the second surprise of the event, with an arguably more impressive resume, having defeated NiP, Na`Vi and Virtus.pro for a second place.

Despite entering the event as clear favorites, NiP bombed out in three matches with losses to coL and Virtus.pro. Na`Vi also struggled due to Ioann "Edward" Sukhariev missing.

Virtus.pro had an impressive win versus NiP, and took down Arseny "ceh9" Trynozhenko's Na`Vi, but ultimately made too many mistakes versus coL and finished third.

Many players blossomed, others had weak showings, certain teams showed promise and others' stock fell. Below are some of the lessons we took away from the ESEA Finals.

What did we learn from ESEA Finals?

Great example of why online results don't matter

We often either talk about the limited importance of online tournament results, or ignore them completely in write-ups such as this one. These ESEA Finals were a perfect example of why we do it. The runner-ups at the event, compLexity, actually finished the regular season, which lasted roughly two months and spanned sixteen matches - not a small sample size by any means - with an 8-8 record, good for a tied fourth place and the last berth for the Finals.

Meanwhile Manajuma, who finished 12-4 online with a 1-1 record versus iBUYPOWER, the eventual champions, and two straight wins over compLexity, as well as another win in CEVO-P, placed dead last and hardly looked competitive in the process. Netcode's record against the two top dogs was same as Manajuma's, and they won a combined three rounds against Virtus.pro in two maps, while both iBP and coL took them out.

Online play is similar to a group stage at a tournament. It's needed, because it eliminates part of the competition in qualifying stages, and also because it gives more exposure to the sponsors funding all of this. However, we should take all online results with a grain of salt - just like group stage results. They are not the same as real matches at LAN tournaments and especially in the playoffs, and never will be. Case closed, again.

n0thing wouldn't be smiling if coL performed like they have online

NA has produced some exceptional talent

Spencer "Hiko" Martin already cracked the top ten in our top twenty players of the year for 2013, but with the way things are looking, and especially if iBUYPOWER and compLexity perform well enough to warrant it, we could see a flood of North American players on our rankings later on this year. iBP now have two legitimate star level players, and Jordan "n0thing" Gilbert showcased his old CS 1.6 form.

Braxton "swag" Pierce was great for compLexity at both ESEA Invite Season 15 Global Finals and EMS One Katowice, and he was also the best player at these ESEA Finals. Tyler "Skadoodle" Latham had a great event, finishing with a rating of 1.32 which is equivalent to the world's best career rating of Christopher "GeT_RiGhT" Alesund. Though he was very average in iBP's losses in Katowice, this could be the start of his breakout year.

Gilbert has showcased flashes of great play already in CS:GO, but never anything like his performance against Virtus.pro in the consolidation final. Gilbert finished the three map series with a 91-48 K-D difference for +43, a kills per round average of 1.15 - a ridiculous number - and a rating of 1.66. Though not the best CS:GO best-of-three performance of all time, it's way up there. North Americans did great; now they need to do the same in Europe.

Seven map rotation is the way to go

Seeing the seven map rotation in play at ESEA after a long time of tournaments only using the Valve-accepted five provided interesting results. Though both de_train and de_mirage remained almost untouched, the results were much more encouraging for the other five maps, especially the two newcomers de_cache and de_season, which ranked tied for second in popularity behind de_inferno.

It's discouraging to remember de_mirage_go was the game's most popular map before Valve made its own version of it, because if de_mirage was still as popular, we could be looking at a great rotation. Remember, ESEA Finals also did not use either one of the two new map selection processes I suggested in my recent article, so the split could have been even better for the viewers.

Map	Played maps	Played in series	Total maps *
de_cache	8/33 (24%)	8/14 (57%)	8/42 (19%)
de_dust2	6/33 (18%)	6/14 (43%)	6/42 (14%)
de_inferno	8/33 (21%)	8/14 (57%)	11/42 (26%)
de_mirage	2/33 (6%)	2/14 (14%)	2/42 (5%)
de_nuke	3/33 (9%)	3/14 (21%)	5/42 (12%)
de_season	5/33 (15%)	5/14 (36%)	8/42 (19%)
de_train	2/33 (6%)	2/14 (14%)	2/42 (5%)

* Total maps includes third maps in series that were not actually played

Valve's newest CS:GO update also added de_cache as a competitive map, suggesting we may see it in play at ESL One Cologne. However, it's saddening to see de_season, which was more popular at ESEA than de_cache (when looking at the maps selected, since not all third maps were actually played), ignored and left out in the cold. Instead our seventh map is likely going to be de_overpass or de_cobblestone, if it comes to that.

Either way, ESEA proved that the seven map pool is the way to go if you're interested in pleasing the viewers, and their pool of maps is solid. With how popular de_cache and de_season wound up being there's an argument to be made for both of them staying when/if de_tuscan comes out, and de_train being the one to lose its spot among the competitive map pool. We're slowly moving towards the right direction on this front.

We could see de_overpass played in Cologne

Even NiP are mere mortals

It finally happened - NiP finished a tournament in CS:GO outside of the final four, the first time in the team's nearly two year history since the game's launch. They've been very close before, this is the first time they actually couldn't close out a match to make it, despite a very strong performance by Alesund, who normally makes their team go. He struggled in the series against compLexity, and his poor de_inferno showing is likely the reason NiP did not win 2-0.

Still, Alesund was the only NiP player who seemingly put up a fight against Virtus.pro in the match that actually knocked them out of the tournament. It's not necessarily an alarming sign; NiP looked to be worse off a year ago in the summer, and still has been the world's best for the majority of the time since then. For those curious of NiP's tournament record, VaKarm listed each event NiP has attended in CS:GO.

This coming weekend's IronGaming LAN will be a chance for NiP to regroup and gain back what could be some lost confidence, as they will tackle Natus Vincere, who will now boast Ioann "Edward" Sukhariev on their roster as well. However, a loss here would likely send the Swedes back to the drawing board looking for answers. They are directly invited to Gfinity 3, should they choose to go, and ESL One Cologne, and have plenty of time to prepare for both.

Expect NiP to shrug this loss off and continue business as usual. They lost to a compLexity team playing CS of their lives, and to a very good Virtus.pro team who have been a top three team for most of this year. Though a 5-6th place finish looks bad due to the bracket draw NiP was given, it's very unlikely there were four teams better than them in Dallas.

f0rest's NiP finish outside of top four for the first time

ESEA offered zero help with the world rankings

We decided to wait until after ESEA Finals, and IronGaming for that matter, before updating the world rankings. It turned out to be a mistake. With the results from the past weekend factored in, it's only gotten harder to properly rank the world's best teams, and I don't expect IronGaming to help us out much with only two top teams, NiP and Natus Vincere, in attendance in Austin this coming weekend.

Once IronGaming is over we're going to take a long objective look at the results of all of the world's best teams over the course of the past few months, and see whether we can draw enough conclusions to update our world rankings. We hope to do one, seeing as it would give everyone more context of where each team stands going into G3 and ESL One Cologne in August, but if it seems like we can't make good arguments for each team's placing, we'll delay it.

For now it seems CS:GO is at a very competitive era. There are basically ten teams who seem capable of beating each other in any given match, and that's great for viewers who seem to get fed up watching the same players always stand on the podium on Sundays. The break from LAN play will also give teams more time to practice and bootcamp, which should make the next two international events in August even more spectacular. Let's enjoy it while it lasts.

These guys are on the rise - that's about all we know

Gun imbalance makes the money system irrelevant

We talked about this more in the previous article about DreamHack Summer, and Valve finally updated the pistols in this week's update. Still, ESEA Finals have once again truly highlighted how big of an impact poorly balanced weapons can have on the game of Counter-Strike, and there's already concern among the community that the new update didn't exactly restore balance, only made different weapons imbalanced. Luckily it seems TEC-9's issues were simply a typo on the developers' part, but there are still other guns that worry people.

One of the biggest factors in CS has always been the economy, and how you manage it. Making pistols, whether it's the CZ75, a Desert Eagle or TEC-9, overpowered negates the importance of the money system, as all of a sudden even $1,400 is enough to compete for a round win against opponents with armors and rifles. We need to make sure this kind of imbalance doesn't surface again in the future, as it eliminates a strategic aspect of the game.

It's not an easy job trying to keep 31 weapons balanced, but maybe that's part of the problem. I'm not sure it's necessary to have over thirty viable guns in competitive play; I think we could be just fine having, for example, 10 or 15 guns that are in good balance, with the rest of them ignored. It's not how Valve sees it, but it's extremely important this balancing act doesn't affect Gfinity 3, or ESL One Cologne later on in the summer.

Still not quite balanced the way things are

swag was the MVP of ESEA Invite S16 Global Finals

In compLexity Braxton "swag" Pierce was usually lurking in the shadows of Spencer "Hiko" Martin and Jordan "n0thing" Gilbert, at least until EMS One Katowice, but now he has truly broken out as a star. Pierce had a strong showing at the previous ESEA season's Finals event, he was by far coL's best player in Poland, and now he's the HLTV.org MVP of ESEA Invite Season 16 Global Finals.

Not only was Pierce the best fragger of the event with a 0.89 kills per round, he finished with a ludicrous 1.36 rating - which would rank above Christopher "GeT_RiGhT" Alesund's world's best career average - but he also finished without a negative K-D difference in any of the maps, for a total difference of +74 across the nine he played.

Most importantly, Pierce was by far iBUYPOWER's best player in the grand final, which saw them smack compLexity around in a lopsided battle, only losing eleven rounds total. He finished +26 in two maps together with a 1.86 rating, far above everyone else on the server. Factor in that Pierce is still only 17 years old, and now try to imagine how good he could become as the year progresses.

swag, at only 17 years old, was the MVP of ESEA S16 Finals

Virtus needs pasha to compete for titles

Though Virtus.pro actually defeated both NiP and Natus Vincere, this wasn't a great showing by them. This place finish doesn't sound bad in itself, but considering they lost against both compLexity and iBUYPOWER, while surrendering a map to Na`Vi, who were without one of their star players, doesn't sound promising. Naturally Virtus had troubles of their own - no way Janusz "Snax" Pogorzelski's personal struggles helped the team.

However, looking at their results at DreamHack Summer and now ESEA, it seems fair to say that Virtus needs Jarosław "pasha" Jarząbkowski to perform well to truly be a contender for titles. Pogorzelski has played to his usual levels at each of Virtus' last events, and while Paweł "byali" Bieliński was underwhelming in Kiev and Dallas, he had a great showing at DreamHack, but it still wasn't enough.

Jarząbkowski actually did play very well in Kiev, but to be fair Virtus lost to two very strong teams, NiP and Titan, so it wasn't exactly a poor performance on their part, simply very tough opposition. On the other hand, they went out against teams they were favored against at both DreamHack and ESEA, and at those events the player who had been in the top five so far in 2014 was fairly underwhelming.

Virtus will now get to go on the break in-game leader Filip "Neo" Kubski has been longing for, and come back ready to prepare to defend their championship at the next major, ESL One Cologne, with full batteries. I expect the Poles to return to championship form and to be a serious contender in Cologne, but as it so often does, it seems that the competition is only getting tougher. Virtus must become more consistent individually to keep up.

pasha is Virtus.pro's most important player

compLexity face tough decisions

The long standing number one team on the continent came into ESEA Finals as huge underdogs, lazy and unprepared, according to in-game leader Kory "Semphis" Friesen. They exceeded all expectations, besting NiP, Natus Vincere (though every win against them at ESEA has an asterisk next to it due to star player Ioann "Edward" Sukhariev missing) and Virtus.pro in best-of-three series. What do they do now?

It was a given prior to the tournament that this compLexity roster could not last. They haven't been able to put in any practice as a team, they barely made the Finals, finishing the regular season with a poor 8-8 record, have constantly lost to iBUYPOWER since they poached Pierce from them, and even finishing outside of the top two in CEVO-P. Add in the fact Todd "anger" Williams was clearly recruited in a hurry with no real consideration, and there's been problems since the get go of this roster.

Fast forward three days and compLexity have had the best tournament run of their career, though one could argue finishing 3-4th at DreamHack Winter, with wins over VeryGames and Astana Dragons, was more impressive. It's the first time they've bested NiP in a best-of-three series, no mean feat for a team who have so often fallen short in the past. It's questionable whether they can realistically carry this success going forward though, or if ESEA might have been a one-off event for them.

Friesen's calling style likely isn't sustainable. It's similar to that of fnatic's Markus "pronax" Wallsten's, only more random, and we've all seen how their results have been since that miraculous DreamHack run, after teams adjusted to it. coL also got ridiculous performances out of Martin and Gilbert; ones you simply can't expect to get every single tournament. What do you make of Sean "sgares" Gares then? He's a solid AWPer and has proven to be a good in-game leader, but what does he do in the team if Friesen calls? Gares isn't a top level rifler, and he needs more structure to be an effective AWPer.

Every team makes its own luck. When you take risks like Gilbert walking into the counter-terrorist spawn versus NiP, sometimes it will pay off. Still, Alesund no-showed at the perfect time to stop a 2-0 beating, and the North Americans caught a lot of breaks. Had they lost against NiP 0-2, their story in Dallas could, and likely would have been a lot different. Now they face some tough decisions.

Do they try to continue with this roster? They will need to keep three players from their EMS One roster together to retain their invitation for ESL One Cologne in August, but they could change up to two players; one of the four, as well as Williams. Michael "shroud" Grzesiek's average performance at ESEA didn't help them with their choice. They have the North American ESWC qualifier in three weeks, setting a tough deadline for changes. Only time will tell what happens.

Who will remain in compLexity jerseys?

iBUYPOWER could be a real threat in Cologne

iBUYPOWER came into ESEA Finals as the defending champions, and as a team who has wreaked havoc on the North American scene since picking up Pierce and Joshua "steel" Nissan, winning CEVO Professional as well as SoCAL Revival #2 over the underwhelming compLexity side. We knew they could perform in Dallas from the previous season's finals, and the favorable bracket draw they received didn't hurt them either.

It's a shame iBP didn't play NiP, and Na`Vi didn't have their full roster present, because we would have gotten a lot better idea of how good Sam "DaZeD" Marine's team truly is. We know they can compete with the best, at least in Dallas, but it's still too early to say whether or not their contender status will have the word fringe attached to it. Beating coL was a given for this roster, and they had no trouble disposing of their rivals twice.

The Virtus.pro win was impressive, and the fact they played a close series and didn't falter at the end shows promise. iBUYPOWER are huge favorites to win the North American ESL One Cologne qualifier, and they'll have plenty of time to prepare for the event as well. Hopefully that includes a bootcamp in Europe. It's just too bad they chose not to go to IronGaming, where they could have challenge NiP and Na`Vi once more. They are currently looking to see if attending Gfinity is a feasible option for the team, and a lengthy bootcamp prior to the major would be a nice boost.

For now give a round of applause for Marine and his team, who become the only other team aside from NiP to have won two ESEA Global Finals events. I will try to write about the North Americans in the coming weeks, as well as try to analyze what may have led to their shortcomings in the past when traveling to Europe. This team is real, and they could very well make the latter stages of playoffs in Germany come August.

iBUYPOWER's performance promises more to come

There are of course just some of the things we learned from a weekend full of action in Dallas. Some of it won't last, and some of it will be forgotten soon, but the future looks bright.

Follow HLTV.org's @lurppis_ on Twitter.

rip nip

2014-07-02 18:24

4 replies

did you even read? i guess no

2014-07-02 19:05

3 replies

have you watched ? i guess no

2014-07-02 19:27

2 replies

2014-07-02 19:34

yes i did

2014-07-02 19:38

2014-07-02 18:27

iBP beat VP on two maps that won't be present in ESL, I think coL are still the ones to watch out for.

2014-07-02 18:28

9 replies

Col vs EU teams have more experience then ibp, and it seems like nothing knows how to play vs EU.

2014-07-02 18:48

Hiko zneel andersson also seems to have a good idea how to do that. He simply clicks them in the face before they do it to him!

2014-07-02 23:54

Who the hell is zneel? That old bald Swedish FAMAS player??

2014-07-03 01:20

1 reply

Yep :p Jim Andersson

2014-07-04 08:43

With the potential roster change, this wil either not be the case, or they will perform even better...

2014-07-02 18:53

+1. I don't understand why most people are missing this. iBP played very well, but their win against VP isn't as impressive as it sounds. VP has played season+cache a total of 10 times in matches over the past 6 months, maybe? Their wins against coL are a given, as stated in the article... so looks like a free win for iBP in my eyes. If they can show that form in Cologne (no season/cache btw), then I'll shut up :D

2014-07-02 19:13

??? Virtus is the team that picked cache against NCG, coL and iBP. They chose season against Na'vi. It was probably a mistake to pick those maps, but they obviously felt comfortable on them and had practiced them a lot for them to make that decision. The '10 times in 6 months' is your imagination, friend. The euros on this site keep making the excuse over and over that Virtus only lost because of the maps, even though VP purposely chose those maps. But then again, we already knew that truth is irrelevant in the face of the the "blame USA for everything" culture that exists in Europe. :)

2014-07-02 20:26

regardless of whether they chose them or not, they're inexperienced on them relative to american teams i'm american - but just trying to be realistic. false hype is no fun

2014-07-02 20:47

VP wanted to play those, they are one of the teams that try to spam season and cache.

2014-07-02 21:51

We learn that Muricans can only win in Murica.

2014-07-02 18:36

6 replies

Pretty much all teams except for NiP can only perform well at home.

2014-07-02 20:07

5 replies

yea thats why Virtus got 2nd in Denmark.

2014-07-02 21:13

make some sense LOL NiP have won at copenhagen 2 times in a row and that was in Denmark?

2014-07-02 22:20

How does that in any way make his comment wrong?

2014-07-03 14:05

You literally just made his point for him.

2014-07-03 20:56

he said 'except' nip

2014-07-07 00:15

swag 17 years old =) nice

2014-07-02 18:37

He's not legal yet keep it in your pants.

2014-07-03 14:40

You better believe I'll be all over that shit as soon as he is.

2014-07-03 17:48

gtfo retard

2014-07-03 19:43

2014-07-02 18:38

Regarding this "Gun imbalance makes the money system irrelevant": I completely agree I think armor penetration should be lowered for ALL pistols (except usp/glock which should remain the same) you simply cannot have gun that cost 500$ doing the same dmg as a rifle of 3100$/2900$ to a guy with helmet at medium-close range. The excuse of "making ecos more entertaining" is stupid imo, as it destroys a huge part of counter strike which is economy.

2014-07-02 18:41

27 replies

well...but in all fairness: eco rounds aren't fun at all. I've never followed source at all ....but i think CGS had like mr10 or 9 with like 10k startmoney. I think that was pretty cool. While eco's are a huge part of CS .... one should think about how they actually affect results. A team that is already winning and forcing enemies to make more ecos ..making the winning team winning even more. Now keeping in mind CS is not a very balanced game in general ..i don't think eco rounds are a good thing tbh. f.e. i think nuke wouldn't have such a high amount of heavily CT sided results without eco rounds. Regards

2014-07-02 18:57

26 replies

One could argue that ecos serve as a penalty for losing gun rounds. If you give them such Op pistols, it wouldn't serve as much of a penalty.

2014-07-02 19:03

isn't losing a round already enough of a penalty?

2014-07-02 19:06

thats kinda what xeqtr proposed back in the days if im not mistaken. Im not saying pistols should be useless just not as powerful as they are now. You shouldnt be able to blow 1000$+2900$+800$ with one click from an investment of 500$ that easy. Its my opinion.

2014-07-02 19:17

Yeah. Yeah, the problem is ....and that's what valve fails to realize... -make pistols weaker -> most likely over 50% loss eco rounds again -> valve doesn't want that - leave pistols as they are -> 1 shot full equipped player with like..not even 1k spend? dafuq. It's just really weird... :/

2014-07-02 19:56

eco rounds should be under 50% win rate. If you are winning over half of your eco rounds then you shouldn't even buy a rifle.

2014-07-03 20:59

CS is as perfectly balanced as a game can be, many fail to realize that. Both teams play under the same rules, and they switch sides. That's all there is to it. Now, using a system where the economy does not play a role and letting everyone start with 16k every round for example like XeqtR suggested way back, - this would not make the game any more balanced. It would just put the emphasis on other skills to win, while making the economic skills vanish.

2014-07-02 19:32

14 replies

at a certain level this economical skill doesn't really matter. There's not much skill in that. Knowing when to eco and when not to. And in mixed environments like MM this is even more frustrating..people not knowing when to buy and when not to buy. Well, people can get affected by losing rounds. If a team is loosing 14-2 as T on nuke ... that can be frustrating. Saying CS is a balanced game, because both teams have to play both sides..is just not very... true. Sorry. Regards

2014-07-02 19:53

Well, at the upper end of competition there are new tiers of economic skills. Where reading your opponent becomes infinitely harder, and making proper force-buys, thinking rounds ahead precisely to a nade that is needed for an execution. Not saying that the economic game is at comparable heights yet, but there's no ceiling in sight just now. And handling for example losing big and having to eco repetitively is a skill as well. A team/player that gets more easily frustrated by the state of things and is not able to see the bigger picture and concentrate beyond that is less skilled than a team/player that can do that. I mean, having to repetitively eco also doesn't come from nothing. You have to reptitively lose your buy rounds for that to happen. Edit concerning your edit: It is very true. Switching sides is an inherent balance because all players, both teams, have precisely the same conditions and the outcome is only affected by the teams' and their players' efforts. Care to elaborate what makes you think otherwise?

2014-07-02 19:58

Perfectly balanced? please. You can destroy ~4-6k worth of stuff with a mere 500 spent, that's how ridiculous the CZ was, and still is. Not to mention the deagle is really good now, and apparently the Tec-9? no clue on the T9.

2014-07-02 21:02

11 replies

Both teams can use the CZ-75. All weapons, both teams can use. A weapon therefore cannot be imbalanced. That's the whole reason why in CS for more than a decace everybody has been using the M4 and AK. They are objectively the best rifles in the game. Are they therefore imbalanced? NO, because both teams, all players, can use them. Please.

10 replies

You're missing the point, the CZ, and now deagle and apparently Tec-9 are just too powerful of pistols, P250 + Armor was more than enough, cost a decent amount, but paid off huge if you won. But now you can get pretty much an AK for 500 bucks, and even after the update I didn't see a change at all, still incredibly powerful. You apparently don't play the game at all/as often, go use the CZ and laugh at how hilarious it is, yes it lacks bullets, but it's powerful as fuck.

2014-07-02 21:19

You are missing the point. I didn't say how the CZ worked was desireable. I was stating it didn't make the game unbalanced, which you argued against and now are drifting away from.

2014-07-02 21:28

8 replies

It does make it unbalanced, if you can't see that then I don't know what to say. You're using a 500 dollar AK, with limited ammo, that can easily change a round into your favor, and crush people who spent ~6k. The gun needs a nerf, pure and simple, and the update they just did didn't do shit to it, in fact, it might even be more accurate at range? don't believe me? go put on impacts in your server and shoot down mid Inferno/D2/etc, shit is ridiculous.

2014-07-02 21:32

7 replies

"if you can't see that then I don't know what to say" You know, the purpose of discussion is to make the other person see what you mean. Up until this point, you have provided no reasoning or counter-argument whatsoever as to supporting the claim "broken" weapons make the game unbalanced. Yes, the CZ was economically ridiculous and maybe still is. Yes, its effect on competition was undesireable. But it did not render the game unbalanced. Both teams can use it. Even if it was better than any more expensive weapon, at some point players would then simply have refrained to buy anything else than the CZ because spending more on something that is not better is not worth it. You could argue that is not how we want the game to work, and I would agree, but that does not make the game unbalanced.

2014-07-02 21:38

I have, you apparently can't read. So please stop trolling. It DOES render the competitive scene unbalanced, it affects strats. Is the enemy going to buy CZ's this round or full save, or force up? you obviously don't play the game at all, or have ever played a CS at any decent level. As it stands, CZ is the perfect ECO weapon, deagle is a bit more expensive but it's really good now, and I just tried out the Tec-9, that shit is broken, it's got a 90% or above accuracy while running and can one shot without head armor at a medium distance.

2014-07-02 21:42

Please highlight those parts for me. You are annoyingly hard of understanding. That is NO explanation whatsoever. Do you even know what balance means? What are you starting to talk about strats?

God you're dumb, I give up attempting to explain shit to you. If you can't grasp something simple, don't even try at all. I'll try one more time, something real simple. If I can afford a 500 dollar weapon that can crush my ~6k investment in 1-2 (range dependent) bullets, it's NOT balanced, it is fucking broken. At least with the 5-7/p250 you have to hit more than one bullet, those two are range dependent too, but you can still one-shot someone being farther away with the CZ.

2014-07-02 21:47

I appreciate you not leaving without having talked this through. First, let me correct you on something. You have now more than once accused me of not even playing the game at a decent level, practically trying to nullify my input by calling me a "noob", as many people here like to fall back on to, instead of providing logical reasoning. Let me ask you the same question: Do you even play the game? The CZ had the exact same stats as the P250 save the automatic mechanic. The CZ can not 1-shot people on longer distances than the P250. let me also say that the CZ costs $300 and not $500. Disregarding that, let's get to your actual reasoning you provided: If you can buy a gun for $300 dollar that is capable of taking me out even when I spent $3000 for my gun, you argue it is unbalanced. I say, seeing as how I can buy the same gun for $300, I have no reason to spend $3000 on another gun. Also, if you invest more into the round, you suffer the same risk of me taking you out with the $300 gun. You can be screwed by how strong the $300 weapon is, I can be screwed by how strong the $300 weapon is. We both are in the same scenario, both have the same conditions and chance to win. The game is balanced.

2014-07-02 21:56

Yes it can one shot farther than the P250, but alright. The reason it's better is because it's automatic. And you're right, it is 300, I guess I was thinking of the five-seven, then again I hardly use it because it's such a cheap and powerful-as-fuck weapon, and even bad players can get kills with it. Just stop, please. The reason why teams don't just buy CZ's is because of the bullets, and range. For the price, the CZ is a monster, which is obvious by the fact that DreamHack had what, 80% of pistols being CZ's? or something dumb, I forget what the percentages were, but they were the most used pistol by far. Tell me, is that not broken? if the P250 is on par and the CZ doesn't make the competitive side unbalanced, why was the CZ the most dominant pistol by far? You buy the AK/M4 because it's a rifle, with much more ammo than the CZ, and can hit shots better at range/do more damage than the CZ. As it currently stands, the CZ is a mini-AK for 300 bucks, and the fact that it is 300 bucks and not 500 makes it even better than I originally thought, sorry for thinking it was 500, my mistake. Yes, if you look at it purely how you are seeing it, then it's balanced, but it's not as black and white as you make it out to be, the gun is unbalanced and top players obviously realized that, and capitalized on that fact.

2014-07-02 22:12

You know what dude, no reason really for us getting overly heated over this anymore. Let's just both continue with what we think is correct and let people that read this conversation decide for themselves whether they agree with the one or the other. Not even being ironic, I mean, it's not like it matters whether you convince me or I convince you of what we think is true - it certainly won't influence the people that can actually change things in the game.

2014-07-02 22:16

The point s/he's making is that P250 + Armor was more than effective, then they introduce the CZ.....which is more powerful than the P250 + Armor without armor. Even after this update, the gun is still ridiculous, now the deagle is really good, and apparently the Tec-9 is too? I never use that gun so I don't know.

2014-07-02 21:00

Without the economy aspect of CS, it loses what makes it different from other games in the fps genre. And no more exciting pistol rounds? No thanks. Money management and awareness of the other team's economy is an important role that often gets overlooked when factoring in an igl's effectiveness too. Reading all of your comments shows you know little about the money system in CS. As far as nuke goes, the map layout is what causes heavily CT sided results, not eco rounds. Sure they play a small role but bonus money is given to the losing team to help teams from having to eco more often. And really? You're gonna use CGS as the good example? We all know how well that ended. I can tell you most pros hated those rules. Especially maxrounds. Players were only in CGS for the money.

you missed the point where i said i didn't follow the CSS scene at all. I just watched some CGS matches and kinda liked the lack of the first pistol/eco rounds.

2014-07-02 21:25

Don't think everybody disagrees with you. I actually agree with you. Not because of balance reasons as I made clear above, but precisely because getting rid of the economic system would put more emphasis on other skills. GO is already too heavily focused on mental competition because mechanically, players can not be that much better than other players due to the lowered skill ceiling. The economic game is a mental one though. If money did not play a role, rounds would be decided only by the game plan and duel skills, which are both mentally and mechanically challanging. But instead of having 16K from the start, I would like to see: 1K first round, 2K second round, 3K third round, ... 15k 15th round. And start at 1K again in the second half. And instead of keeping the stuff the player did not lose the round before, all players start "naked" each round. This way, both teams would have the same amount of money that they have to spend wisely. A variety of different guns would see play not only in the opening rounds, there would still be a pistol round and purchase choices would have a bigger impact on the game ultimately as well. For example: It's the 5th/6th round, does a team decide to invest into an AWP, taking the risk of being a nadeset down compared to their opponents? And metagames: Does a person in the 5th round buy armor and another player drops him an AWP, so that you have the advantage against an opponent's AWP? Etc. While more thought would have to go into weapon pricing, with this system, Valve could actually fully embrace the approach of adding a variety of weapons (but so that you don't have to limit your options prior to the game like it is currently with the "loadout" concept), because then it would make sense to put emphasis on making the right choice of purchase. This will naturally never happen with how rigid CS' traditions sit.

2014-07-03 00:12

That idea sounds interesting but pretty much after the 5th round anyone can buy an awp or autosniper for the rest of the match. You talk about risk on that 5th/6th round but its only 1 round out of 15. That doesn't sound like much risk to me because they'll just buy another one the following round. Money management is what makes CS different from other games in the fps genre. I think removing the money system would make the game stagnant since there's no risk involved by purchasing weapons like the awp or auto. In fact, it would be less exciting than COD because there's no reward either for doing well besides winning a round. At least they have killstreaks, etc.

2014-07-03 21:06

I agree that the economic system is an integral part of what makes CS CS. In that very round, the risk is there though. Beyond the 5/6th round, money does not play a role anymore. This could also be interesting, because the emphasis of competition then shifts towards more mechanical-centered skills. People will not save their weapons but always try to go for even a 1v3 retake for instance. Both teams have the same starting conditions every round. Again, I'm not saying having to eco hurts balance, getting an economic advantage or forcing your opponent into an eco still is achieved by skill naturally, but when everyone has weapons every round, the importance of duel-skill is increased in total. Would just be exciting to see how the game turned out that way I guess, I'm not saying it is something we should seriously consider, because I like the economic sphere of the game just as much as you.

2014-07-04 04:34

you should make an article explaining why tec-9, CZ and five-seven need a nerf. this is the only way that valve devs will understand how things work. They think that every player wishes 1300 buys to win eco

2014-07-02 18:45

Valve needs to realize they don't need OP-as-fuck pistols, and to balance every single gun, what's wrong with ~10-15 guns in competitive play? who gives a crap about pubs, people buy the most random guns in pubs already.

2014-07-02 21:04

This tournaments was really stupid ! Dignitas can win all American team-always. Eu team just was tired, playing without zeRo energy and brain.... You can see their motivation from "body language"...so dont be proud NA :)

2014-07-02 18:50

NA is more reactive than EU. Why? 9-44 forgiven - fiffy still getting loved by NiP 12-41 not forgiven - anger kicked

2014-07-02 18:52

that's why we suck internationally

2014-07-02 19:50

"I think we could be just fine having, for example, 10 or 15 guns that are in good balance" This. So much. Valve's approach is just wrong ....at least the problem is that ALL people play the same CS:GO version. Competitive gamers and casuals. You can't please both sides of the game and it's pretty obvious Valve's focuses on the casual side ...leaving the competitive side in a bad state. I hope Valve will release the latest SDK once source2 is out and people can actually mod CS:GO so in the future we might have a competitive CS:GO version ..which is.... constant.

i learn from semphis... i can lose weight, even playing csgo. hiko u can do it !

2014-07-02 18:54

Nothing new for me gyazo.com/c649dfe664cd8b471e4a1af8045d5b..

Teach me your ways senpai

2014-07-02 19:10

So where's that LOST VP vs coL up top?

2014-07-02 19:22

VP was really tired and made tons of mistakes vs NaVi, so i decided to skip next match because of full random and bad odds.

2014-07-02 20:11

Wow, I'm jealous. Please, teach me. :P

2014-07-02 21:06

great article one correction though: "It's just too bad they chose not to go to IronGaming, where they could have challenge NiP and Na`Vi once more." steel said in an interview that irongaming, for some baffling reason, didn't invite ibp to their event

2014-07-02 19:00

I think they did get an invite, but it was only after VP dropped out. By then it was too late, since they'd already booked their flights for the ESEA schedule and it wouldn't have been economically feasible for them to change their tickets etc to include IronGaming.

2014-07-02 20:10

no one has yet to mention, that we may be seeing the horrid map de_overpass in a CS:GO major???

2014-07-02 19:01

kill me if this happens

2014-07-03 04:14

much butthurt article , nothing new from this guy , cant even read through the bullshit is up there. ibp won 2 lans in a row , wow lets place them in the tops now ! probably gonna end in 10-16 places at COLOGNE as they did in Katowice and other crappy article will come out.

13 replies

So you admit to NOT reading the article, then proceed to comment on it. HLTV in a nutshell.

2014-07-02 19:39

12 replies

I wrode it , but the bullshit consisting the so 'called article' is nothing what you cannot see up there in hltv trolls & other guys are speaking about. What I mean that this article is poorly written and could be written by everyone with common sense and common hater with basic common sense and cs knowledge can write such bullshit. don't see why people see something spectacular in this guy articles.

2014-07-02 20:01

You neither "wrode" this article, nor read this article. And you don't seem to possess the logic nor English skills to write this article. lol

2014-07-02 20:14

I'm not speaking about myself , common logic would've helped you other here. I did read it the shit which is written and couldn't even care less about biasiad arrogant butthurt. Don't quote my if you lack of common sense , retard.

2014-07-02 21:22

"cant read through the bullshit is up there" "I did read it the shit" n1 "don't quote my if you lack of common sense" n2 "couldn't even care less" n3 "I'm biasiad arrogant butthurt" -easy'

2014-07-02 21:50

why you quoting me again - idiot... 'cant read through' doesn't mean I didn't read it , does it ? otherwise I would say that I didn't read something , don't I ? the lack of the logic and common sense really shows that you're surely to be an American , idiot. and the last two parts are towards lurpiss and not yourself , once again the only proves me that you are an idiot since you cant even follow the common. stop embarrassing yourself.

2014-07-02 22:02

"I lack common sense and knowledge of how to have a proper discussion" -easy'

2014-07-02 22:10

Lurp comes off bad in all of his articles imo. It's obvious he's as biased against not only teams and certain players but really against cs go in general. He doesn't capture the spirit of cs anymore. You however capture the spirit of HLTV pretty well try to be nicer bud.

I never understood this attitude towards his articles. I can't name one point he made in this article that could be considered bias. All conclusions are based on logical dissection of statistics and facts.

2014-07-03 00:01

Saying things like "nothing wouldn't have been smiling if col had preformed like they have online" may be a totally true but don't you think that is a negative spin on it? "col stepping it up on lan" or something of the like would be more what you should expect. I may be splitting hairs, but that fiff article - never forget.

2014-07-03 23:13

cant read through' doesn't mean I didn't read it , does it ? That's actually exactly what it means. If you can't read something, how did you read it?

wow another smart murican showing of his intellect.

2014-07-04 13:47

"biasiad arrogant butthurt" haha hahahaha

2014-07-03 14:18

Great article lurppis once again!

steel n swag duo is beastly

2014-07-02 19:33

We learnt that teams perform way better at home. I'm pretty sure if COL or IBP have to travel to an european even they wouldnt be in the top5.

Now that this is the fourth LAN to be won by home territories I can't really argue. But, I do think you're underestimating iBP if you don't think they can make top 5. We've yet to see more of them internationally so who knows~

2014-07-02 19:54

People are underestimating coL too, they just need a really solid 5 and to play more seriously/etc. I'm honestly not sure why they got destroyed in the grand finals...iBP is good......but so is coL, as they proved by beating 3 top EU teams in a row. It honestly looked like they just gave up when playing on Nuke, from the very start, and I don't get it cause they're pretty much on par, excluding what happened obviously.

2014-07-02 21:10

except coL placed 3rd/4th

2014-07-02 21:20

We learned that the NA users in hltv are generally terrible.

2014-07-02 19:45

Haha, scumbag ESEA finals, no help for lurppis @ world rankings, such a dick :D

IBP has no chance at Cologne.

2014-07-02 20:12

Regarding ranking: You might just need to force a top 1-4, and start ranking the rest in groups. For example, have four teams tied for ranking between 5-8, and have them randomly selected in terms of bracket setup against #1-4. Regarding coL/iBP: Would be nice to see a podcast discussing your opinions on the NA scene, particularly after predicting a 4th and 5-6th place finish for the top two NA teams. I think iBP have a much better chance to impress at ESL. coL relied too much on ungodly, and probably not replicable, performances by n0thing and hiko for their big wins. great article as always

2014-07-02 20:36

Podcast would be nice. There is a lot to talk about. fnatic changes, ESEA, Cologne, rankings, US scene vs EU scene, update and balance. Make it happen lurrpis! :)

2014-07-02 23:22

nice read

2014-07-02 20:34

Nothing about Na'Vi or i'm just blind ? :P

2014-07-02 21:08

real na`vi roster didn't play at esea, seems pointless to talk about one (with ceh9) that we'll most likely never see again

2014-07-03 08:15

but they were good :)

2014-07-03 10:36

not as good as they are with edward, and it says absolutely nothing about the future

2014-07-03 11:05

Ssry i'm just a Na'Vi fan Anyways keep up the good work , i realy like what you do for CS community ! :)

2014-07-03 11:41

this as with Edward Na'Vi show alot more and just overall play on a different level as we saw them play at dreamhack summer

2014-07-03 14:34

What I didn't learn was how bad the ghosting was, I heard claims of it and in hikos motm pov he always seems to get the 2k sprays since he knows the second guys spot. There have been several times (like with frods ghosting and dhw casters calling the action in nips ear that I feel the spirit of lan play is being eluded. GG usa

mad eu fanboy theres a thing called game sense, but a pub scrub like you wouldn't understand.

2014-07-02 21:21

I wasn't being sarcastic genius, I dont bet and support the US, fact is you haven't been around long if you don't know about previous ghosting at US lans, I just think a lan setup should be a little more pure (no fan, video screen or announcer assistance) than what I have witnessed in lans past but. Look how many people thought cLy had game sense til two days ago. NOT SAYING cLy AND HIKO COMPARE BUT FACT IS COMPLEXITY HAS CHEATED IN THE PAST><><><

2014-07-02 21:33

You are sincerely deluded, arrogant, and aren't making any sense.

2014-07-02 21:40

Read reports of ghosting on hltv. Not sure if true. Have witnessed ghosting in various forms at multiple lans. I Was not at this lan to know for sure If anyone knows one way or another (was there), I could understand what I heard being false. Frod was on EG at the time so I am deluded in that but this is what i mean. sk-gaming.com/video/295799-EG_caught_gho..

2014-07-02 21:55

That was in China, not US.

2014-07-02 22:00

O word, remember the lan that had the 2v2 championship last year. That setup seemed to have the announcers chair right next to/above one team but 8 ft away from the other, what about two teams playing on the same stage where one calls in swedish and one calls in english but the swedish team naturally speaks english and may hear them?

2014-07-02 22:09

fans? theres like less than 50 persons attending esea lan lol

2014-07-02 23:50

Do we think the fan could affect the outcome at other larger lans? Like calling out what they see live on the video screens. Again I don't know and haven't been to one of these events, and if the home team wasn't always taking 1st I wouldn't even ask.

2014-07-03 23:30

looks like only americans can understand English, right?

2014-07-02 21:44

+1 man I am just looking for clarification, I am happy the US won.

2014-07-02 21:59

With Semphis as IGL, why keep sgares on the roster?

2014-07-02 21:36

Because anger struggled more, Sean had a good run and is more of a "glue" guy with semphis and anger being better riflers than teammates.

2014-07-02 21:43

lol

2014-07-03 01:05

I learned what I always knew to be true: That NA is MORE than capable of competing with top euro teams despite the obvious lack of financial support and proper practice against top opponents. Europe should seriously be afraid of how good these NA teams can compete with them when common sense tells you that NA teams have much harder hurdles to overcome in order to create and maintain a top level team. The myth of europe simply being better has always been such a fuckin joke to anyone with a brain. Our players, if givent he resources, have equal talent and ability to win.

2014-07-02 22:04

hahha , nice joke

2014-07-02 22:13

nice joke why?why wouldnt NA players have equal talent and ability to win?LOLOL

2014-07-03 01:06

Will be nice to see an american team to win an event in europe. So keep it going and practice.

"Seven map rotation is the way to go" Fuck yes.

2014-07-02 22:15

IMO IBP won't go out of the group stage

2014-07-02 22:18

Though I lose more rounds to the cz than win, I would like to see the pistol dmg be more in line with 1.6. A p2k HS vs. Head armor needs to be in the high 80's to low 90's not mid 60's, the usp-s low 80's instead of low 60's. The glock as well, I have survived ecos with 4 hp and <50 armor, so i took 150+ total dmg??seems unfair.

2014-07-02 22:28

all i learned from this esea season is that NIP is definitly the best team in the world and that GET_right is not the best player Never bet on nip again guys

2014-07-02 22:36

lol gtr is not the best player because he failed in one bo3 vs coL,fuck logic

2014-07-03 01:07

The main two things i learned from ESEA: 1- Americans proved that IGL isn't really a role. (how?) Look at semphis, apart from him being the new IGL, he also is playing an entry fragger role and done at least decent with the role. Another example is the MVP of the tournament which is DaZeD, he played as an ingame leader and a star. I saw him play against a top European side and have perfect entry kills. While every other Ex6tenz is failing at fragging with Titan and the only excuse that i ever seen for his low performances is "IGL". 2- How much AZK is underrated as a player, he played really well yet he rarely gets mentioned.

2014-07-02 22:45

semphis sgares and anger finished with the same stats,how can you say that semphis performed good at being an entry fragger?I lold to the bandwagon

do you even know whats an entry fragger?

2014-07-03 02:44

how can i not know whats an entry fragger?its an entry frager LOLw

2014-07-03 02:48

then what does entry fragging have to do with stats? + how can you compare a lurker to an entry fragger?

2014-07-03 02:50

iBP performed awesome in Dallas, can't wait to see them at EMS next month. Also, I hope coL will get top 4, who else their 5th will be.

2014-07-02 23:40

Another great article as always Lurrpis. I'm really excited to see how iBP can do in Cologne. They really look like they can do well at the event.

2014-07-03 00:00

"when/if de_tuscan comes out", XD the "if condition" :D

2014-07-03 00:13

This is what we learnt : puu.sh/9Nic6/c7042c9524.png

2014-07-03 01:39

+1 for my nigga semphis

2014-07-03 22:05

Great news, nice statistics. I was impressed to see de_cache and de_season. Let's see if the new maps like tuscan, overpass will make it to the next event :)

2014-07-03 04:23

fully agree with Tomi

2014-07-03 04:33

Funny how fucking everyone in this damn thread claim that coL have more experience with euro teams. NO. If you observed, Navi and VP are NEW top teams that have not met coL when at the top level. Like lurrpis said we can't guarentee anything from them, but they look promising.

2014-07-03 05:29

What a great read. Fantastic!

2014-07-03 07:20

in before iBP doesn't even get out of groupstage AGAIN.....if that happends steel will rage quit im betting roflz he was already steaming mad at when VP came back on the second map against them to force a 3de map even though iBP had a advantage of the first half going 12-3 in there favor roflz