Cloud9: "We need to work together"

3-11-2014 08:40

For our final interview from ESWC 2014 we caught up with Jordan "n0thing" Gilbert and Mike "shroud" Grzesiek from Cloud9 to talk about their harsh exits from the past two events along with various other topics.

Cloud9 came to ESWC 2014 having just been eliminated from the FACEIT League Season 2 Finals in Milan due to round difference. Once again they were eliminated by round difference at the hands of the same two teams - LDLC and Virtus.pro.

In the interview shown below, Jordan "⁠n0thing⁠" Gilbert and Mike "⁠shroud⁠" Grzesiek discuss their feelings on this particular system, the veto system in place and how they will prepare for the upcoming major DreamHack Winter 2014.

That's all from HLTV.org at ESWC this year, but be sure to stay tuned for full coverage of all the upcoming online and offline events, including the eagerly anticipated DreamHack Winter 2014.

bad luck for them this event

2014-11-03 08:40

11 replies

Cloud9 will be Cloud9, never count on them performing anywhere but a major. This is a pattern, I wouldn't call it luck.

2014-11-03 08:46

7 replies

It can hardly be considered as a bad performance, seeing as they only lost one game, so where is the pattern?

2014-11-03 08:53

6 replies

They lost the clutch rounds. If it were groups at a major they would have been winning them. They may have won games but you could see it in the rounds.

2014-11-03 09:44

5 replies

its literally 2 events. if you consider anything a pattern after 2 events, you're retarded

2014-11-03 09:56

1 reply

murican's gonna murica

2014-11-03 12:13

They statistically played better than every team at the event. I know stats aren't everything, but they had some shit luck.

2014-11-03 10:01

2 replies

less games most often makes ur stats better

2014-11-03 19:04

1 reply

I know, considering they only lost 1 match and didn't have to go onto semi's or quarters, which is why I said stats aren't everything because they are slightly skewed in this case.

2014-11-03 20:21

2014-11-03 10:00

If you were an organiser of ESWC, would you have put them through on your rules? It's a difficult one, because although they beat VP, so should have their spot, you could say that VP deserve it because they beat LDLC who Cloud9 lost to. What do you think of the round difference rule? Kinda stupid because teams can perform much better or worse on different maps, so many circumstances.

2014-11-03 12:29

1 reply

Think there should be a better system, maybe not have round difference in groups were only 2 teams qualify.

2014-11-03 12:36

Seriously bad luck. If you look at the stats and watch their gameplay, you could tell it was a good day for them. They probably would have made it to quarters/semis

2014-11-03 08:41

10 replies

yeah i remember seeing the stats page for the event and three c9 members were in the top10 for most k/d difference

2014-11-03 08:42

9 replies

they pretty much had one bad half which was the CT inferno against LDLC which ended up costing them. they were in the hardest group by far knowing what we know now with VP and LDLC both finishing top3

2014-11-03 08:48

8 replies

also, when they tried to knife that one guy from PlanetyKey while it was still 15-5 and they ended up losing that round and the next four rounds after with the game ending in 16-10. That round cost them -5 rounds :/

2014-11-03 08:51

7 replies

that didnt matter in the end at all, the only rounds that mattered were the ones between the tied teams

2014-11-03 08:54

2 replies

I think the knife hurt them personally because PKD went on to win what, 6 more rounds or whatever after that? if they just had killed him it would have ended MUCH sooner, and with more confidence when they were crushing PKD.

2014-11-03 09:48

ohhh lol I see, haha sorry, im kind of new to this

2014-11-04 00:53

That doesn't count. You only consider RD in those matches between tied teams, so LDLC C9, LDLC VP, VP C9

2014-11-03 08:55

3 replies

great interviews Striker, thanks for the coverage!

2014-11-03 10:23

now it didn't count but in other group it could fuck them up.

2014-11-03 11:01

yeah haha sorry my bad

2014-11-04 00:54

Bad luck Cloud9 -_- But rules are rules,they cant break it. Poor them,good luck,have fun and try again next time :))

2014-11-03 08:46

Comeback 9!

2014-11-03 08:47

<3 c9 gl at major

2014-11-03 08:49

hope they do as well on this major as the last one <3 win our hearts again c9!

2014-11-03 08:52

I've never seen a team get screwed by lazy organizers so badly. C9 is just being nice here, trust me, off camera they are fucking pissed they lost out on playoffs because of meaningless -3 rounds

2014-11-03 09:01

30 replies

Huh? No one got screwed, this is a very standard way of resolving a three-way tie. There's no better way to handle a six team group

2014-11-03 09:18

29 replies

the whole round robin group stage is just a disaster waiting to happen. weird matches end up being played like that iBP vs dignitas game where both teams could throw the match to get an easier bracket, thus screwing over anyone who bet on that match.

2014-11-03 09:34

10 replies

The problem of the round robin group stage is the three-way (or more) ties. But there's only so much you can do with 24 teams, when you also want to give all of them plenty of matches. The easier bracket thing is a problem for any kind of group stage, and the closest thing to a solution is playing the last matches at the same time and having a random bracket. In the end there is nothing unfair, even though I also hate these three-way ties that knock someone out, or put someone through just because of a few rounds. All teams were (or should have been) aware of how it works. Cloud9 got really unlucky, dropping out just cause of one bad half..

2014-11-03 09:51

2 replies

I agree the great thing about this system is the amount of matches that every team gets to play even if they get knocked out. I think the bigger problem is only having 8 teams in the playoff bracket, it should either be 16 teams or 8 with a lower-bracket. The group-stage should be used as a seeding for the playoffs not to send top teams packing after one bad map. Just look at VP, they were 3 rounds away of going out in groups and they ended up in 3rd place.

2014-11-03 10:04

1 reply

I absolutely agree, we're at a point in time now when there are more than 8 teams that deserve to be in the playoffs, to battle for the top4 and even for the title. So the playoffs should include more than 8 (especially at the majors). But it just doesn't seem to be realistic yet as all these events have so many time (schedule), # of PCs (matches at the same time) and venue limits..

2014-11-03 10:10

Nobody is throwing. Just stop.

2014-11-03 10:04

6 replies

i didnt say they threw but its a possibility. Fetish even said in the HLTV interview that if they are 4-0 in the groups before the iBP match they might throw it just to get 2nd seed and avoid fnatic.

2014-11-03 10:10

2 replies

Even if they did, that's strategic play. They shouldn't be worrying about people's bets.

2014-11-03 10:15

1 reply

its completely legit I just feel bad for betters who lost skins on strategically thrown match

2014-11-03 10:36

except ex-alsen, they did.

2014-11-03 11:55

1 reply

They didn't throw on lan at ESWC. Some shit sub-tier Polish team doesn't count.

2014-11-03 20:22

if you watch device's interview, he said he felt like iBP were playing "yolo" so that they would get the easier bracket. I don't think it was a throw, but I think iBP were too comfortable with losing so that they would get the easier team

2014-11-03 17:20

Think like n0thing said either needed more groups with 4 teams or have more than 2 come through. A group system where you can go 4-1 and not make it through is pretty flawed.

2014-11-03 09:48

14 replies

Yes of course it's flawed, but it was the only realistic one. You can't have 6 groups with 4 teams cause it doesn't give you 8 or 16 teams for playoffs. 8 groups with 3 teams would be really boring, and would have the same three-way tie problem. Having 4 come through would work in general, but not at ESWC though because of limited schedule (matches must end around 19). This all came to happen because there are more than 8 really good teams, so some of them had to sit out on the playoffs. They will have to at majors too. ESWC's way of determining it looks worse but does the same thing. Even at a major teams end up missing out on playoffs cause of 2 rounds in a bo1, which is also flawed in a way. Cloud9 actually had their fate in their hands, unlike Virtus.pro who would have even more reason to be mad as C9 and LDLC could have just agreed to knock them out, which is an even bigger issue with three-way ties.

2014-11-03 10:07

13 replies

4 groups of 6 teams, top4 go to a 16 team bracket?

2014-11-03 10:13

1 reply

Like I said, having 4 come through would work in general, but not at ESWC because of limited schedule (matches must end around 19, they want to play a few matches and a final on stage and they have a number of other games with the same conditions...).

2014-11-03 10:24

Could of be been top 3 make it out with the #1 seed going straight to quarter finals. Then have a bo1 or something in that first round playoffs. Plus the last day of the tournament they payed 3 series total and one of which was a 3rd place decider which most people don't care about.

2014-11-03 10:22

4 replies

I don't see how that's an improvement, it's a bo1 in playoffs, just as random and it would end up being something to complain about for the losing team. It is how it is for now until the conditions change at ESWC (more time, more PCs, more CSGO/less other games).

2014-11-03 10:22

3 replies

Think people would be more happy seeing teams have a chance in playoffs, even if its a bo1, than seeing teams go 4-1 and not getting out of groups in favor of a team they beat. Plus like I said they only played 3 series on the last day of the tournament. Fitting 4 bo1 games on day 2/3 wouldn't have broken the schedule that much. Just moved 1 more series to finals day.

2014-11-03 10:27

1 reply

+1 , teams shouldn't be disqualified without playing a head-to-head

2014-11-03 17:22

ESWC has an excuse seeing as they have multiple different games, but tournmaments that only have csgo dont, like valves majors...

2014-11-03 10:30

VP and C9 shouldn't have been in a position where they are disqualified without even playing a head-to-head against eachother to decide who's the better team. ESWC could've had LDLC advance as the #1 seed, and play a tiebreaker on friday (when C9 and VP had a day off) to decide who's going to the playoffs. there's many other ways to handle this, i don't know why you're so hung up on the worst way

2014-11-03 17:15

5 replies

That makes no sense, all three teams beat one of the others and were in a tie. If you're gonna put LDLC as #1 then logically Virtus should be #2 by the same criteria, no need to play another match. You could pose that all 3 of them should play again to determine who goes through, but 1) there is no free PCs the next day (and what if it happens on day 2, you need to know the teams for the playoffs, and there's no time to play it); 2) the same thing could happen again, another tie. So it's not the worst way, it's the only way to resolve it in these circumstances.

2014-11-03 18:07

4 replies

well what I was saying is, if you want to have the criteria of ranking teams based on round difference, that can be viable if you do it for only the top statistical team in the group. I think that's acceptable, even if a horrible system. the remaining two teams however should get a fair shot at the playoffs, and neither VP or C9 did. VP was just lucky and C9 unlucky

2014-11-03 18:18

3 replies

That's not acceptable for me, you have to apply the criteria all the way, not just for the top team. All three teams had equal shot at the playoffs, LDLC could have been knocked out if they lost the last match. VP could have been knocked out if C9 only took 3 more rounds. VP beat the #1 team by your criteria, why do you neglect that? There is no fire here, no point in looking for it. This is the way these group stages work and until the circumstances change, that's just how it is, unlucky for some, lucky for others. I don't like it either, but there's no other viable option.

2014-11-03 18:57

2 replies

first, it's not my criteria. I would never design a system to include round differences as the criteria for eliminating a team. I was only trying to improve their shit criteria, if they are so hard-pressed about round-differences having an impact. the only criteria one should have when ranking teams is head-to-head wins There's really no reason why teams couldn't have a tiebreaker match to decide who goes on to playoffs. If they need more computers, they should get them. the time was there

2014-11-03 19:49

1 reply

You're still being unrealistic and assuming everyone is gonna invest huge money in CSGO. We're not there yet. ESWC had more PCs, but they were used by other games all the time, and that's where their limitations are (mostly, along with the early closing time every day). Head-to-head is the first criteria of course, but when the teams are tied and you don't have time to replay the group (FACEIT actually would have done it if the teams were completely tied in round difference as well), you have to settle for this. It's also not "their criteria". This is how group stage three-way ties work everywhere, or at least should (some use overall round difference first, which is worse imo).

2014-11-03 20:00

"no better way to handle a six team group" why do the feel the compulsion to have a 6 team group? c9 was seriously fucked over, how can you not see it? They train hard for weeks for ESWC and they are disqualified for 1 bad half of CS. that is not acceptable from any tournament. If you're hosting a tournament and your format allows such a screw up, you need to change it, end of story.

2014-11-03 17:13

2 replies

The 6 team groups were made so that all the teams traveling from around the world wouldn't play 2 maps and go out like they do in majors. But what you're talking about is just not true, no one got screwed over, that's just how it is, that's the three way tie rule, always has been and always will be. It could have happened to anyone, they were unlucky. The groups were stacked, just like they are at majors. One bad half can also knock you out at Cologne in the 2nd place decider (like Titan vs. dignitas). Like I said above, now the difference is that there's more great teams so playoffs should have 16 teams. But it's still not possible apparently (some events do have it, like CPH Games with 32 even). I don't like the three way ties at all but I'm just being realistic. That is the stage CS is currently in, these big events are held at rented out places during big festivals, like PGW or gamescom, and they have to stick to their rules about schedule, which means it usually has to be the simplest format available.

2014-11-03 18:28

1 reply

yeah I see your point. I respect it too, but I do think that there is a better solution if the organizers put their minds together. The titan vs dig wasn't really the same because titan lost 2 games and was eliminated, which is fair. They had a second chance to do well. And they were properly punished for not closing the game out against c9

2014-11-03 19:52

They need to protest the event if they end up with VP in their group. VP always screws them over.

2014-11-03 09:04

4 replies

I think it is their own fault. IMO they are a better team right now than VP, but how in the world do you choose to play inferno against LDLC

2014-11-03 09:11

3 replies

c9s inferno used to be top notch, im not sure if they stopped practicing it or what, but they used to be quite good

2014-11-03 11:53

2 replies

well they said clearly in the interview that they cannot find scrims in USA to play inferno and that they THOUGHT that still they would be able to perform good on this map. but common dude, they were crushed in the faceit, and after one week they again do the same mistake...mirage would have been more better, even though they rarely play on it

2014-11-03 12:31

1 reply

yeah unfortunately thats true

2014-11-03 20:28

They will comeback to Europe after 10 days.

2014-11-03 09:10

Shame tbh that they were put in the only group with 3 truly top-tier teams in.

2014-11-03 09:18

gief chocolate waffels plx

2014-11-03 09:49

This group system was bad.. Vp didnt deserve it.

2014-11-03 10:03

Hypothetically, if they don't do well at DHW and sgares doesn't play well, it would be sick if they -sgares and + freakazoid. Semphis can awp.

2014-11-03 10:07

2 replies

I doubt freakazoid will play. He's not even playing invite this season because he doesn't want to spend the needed time for practice

2014-11-03 13:50

1 reply

I know. It would never happen, but it should.

2014-11-03 20:23

agree with n0thing, you shouldn't be able to pick the start side of the map you chose

2014-11-03 10:13

hope they do well at DHW.

2014-11-03 10:23

cloud9 should move to eu and become #1 team

2014-11-03 10:27

on this level, durr we dont rly have pistol strats... plol

2014-11-03 10:31

2 replies

You have to understand that they don't really have competition in the US. The only team they could really get good practice against is iBP and they don't just want to play against 1 team all the time.

2014-11-03 13:51

1 reply

They dont play ibp at all.. both teams refuse to play each other

2014-11-03 16:13

I agree with n0thing, there was 6 teams in each group they had to make it so 3 teams could go out from each group. 6 teams in 4 groups and only two teams advancing is just a little bit silly. The tournament could have been more interesting with 1/12.

2014-11-03 11:06

Bring back the good ol' CPL format, except with bo3 instead of bo1 and bo5 instead of bo3 in the final. That way everyone can afford one series loss but one loss only and every team is assured at least four maps in the tournament if that's what the fuzz is all about. Easy, fair and not complicated whatsoever, can support a variety number of teams aswell depending if you include 1st round byes or not. For those that don't remember or weren't around, it was just a straight forward bracket system(based on seeds) where the the WB winner started a bo3 final 1-0.

2014-11-03 11:35

c9 doesnt have world class igl. Their mid game decision is often times shaky.

2014-11-03 12:23

4 replies

c9 is like SK from 1.6. They have so much talent, but no normal IGL leader.

2014-11-03 12:33

3 replies

yeah, that's why fnatic mTw and G5 was way better than SK

2014-11-03 13:34

2 replies

well I think they were equal. remember 2011: sk, esc, na'vi won 2 lans so it was a huge discussion who was the team of the year.

2014-11-03 13:42

1 reply

i mean before that, at that moment 1.6 was actually dead... yeah with a lot of tournaments and players but basically dead with poors prize pool

2014-11-03 14:02

shroud's 1st official interview ever at an event :) ?

2014-11-03 12:54

1 reply

From what he told me his first "big" one :)

2014-11-04 03:37

n0thing :D :D funny as always

2014-11-03 13:12

so whats that veto system about? u have 7 map pool. both ban one map. and then from the other 5 maps each team can just pick a map and a side they wanna start on? to me that sounds like all teams need to be prepared on 6 maps. if this succeeds, that would be really cool imo. look at c9. what maps are they good on? they have like 3-4 maps to go to. inferno, d2, cache and nuke probably. im not sure how good their nuke is (beat nip at cologne on it), but their inferno is not good enough to beat ldlc or fnatic. that gives them maybe like 2-3 maps where they can beat fnatic on, one of which is gonna get banned by fnatic. tell me how their gonna compete ever.

2014-11-03 13:17

1 reply

They wont ever be able to compete if they cant find decent practice in the us

2014-11-03 16:15

shroud couldn't have been less professional, what a idiot.

2014-11-03 13:22

5 replies

Hurr durr ur a retard

2014-11-03 16:16

he's a CS player not a spokesman :D. the interviewer is kinda of awkward, you need to admit. that doesn't help

2014-11-03 17:24

3 replies

You dont need to be a spokesman to listen to your host. He is more interested in the game being played than the interview. If that is the case, dont turn up to the panel. It's a lack of respect and rude.

2014-11-03 17:28

2 replies

You must not interact with many human beings. He's clearly nervous and looking away\changing the position of his hands nonstop.

2014-11-03 21:27

1 reply

I never said he wasn't nervous. I hope this is the only reason, but just came across rude. I'm sure he's a nice fella.

2014-11-03 22:01

should be using pistol round difference to determine who goes through. if there happens to be a tie, then goto the subsequent round difference.

2014-11-03 13:36

what match did they watching? (shrouds talkin about it during iv)

2014-11-03 13:52

1 reply

First map of the Grand Final

2014-11-03 15:29

Mike Grzesiek lel

2014-11-03 14:03

Please make a list of question with correct wording next time..It kills to see this :(

2014-11-03 15:15

I hope so to see Cloud9 in action again for next big tourmanet from them we can learn more if they want do something new tactic thats will be great!@!@! xDDD

2014-11-03 16:26

Great job with the interview Striker, but you really need to look over the way you're asking the questions. Sometimes you ask multiple questions in the same sentence (sometimes not even related to eachother) that's going on for like 30 seconds. Makes it really hard for both us and the ones getting interviewed I'd guess.

2014-11-03 18:03

1 reply

It is something I need to work on for sure, problem was that most of the times I just caught the players in between matches or when they were about to go out to eat/whatever else, so I had almost no time to prep anything. Then I just go with whatever I dig out of my mind on the spot, which means I get to a point where I always realize something else while asking the questions. Thanks for the constructive criticism though, I've been trying to follow the comments so that I can improve as much as possible.

2014-11-03 18:12

I just heard that the team that choose the map also choose the side. That is completely retarded. This is the first time I have never heard about this. Why would you ever make it like this

2014-11-03 18:14