The logic behind Valve’s move to MR12

How will Counter-Strike 2's shorter game times affect competitive play?

Valve announced a move back to MR12 in Competitive mode via their Counter-Strike 2 patch notes. Initial reaction has been lukewarm, with 47.1% of 4220 X users saying they would not like to see the game change down to 12-round halves on an HLTV Confirmed poll.

But there is logic behind Valve’s decision, and plenty of it. "Over the past decade, we’ve shipped updates to the economy and weapon balance to trim the fat and reduce the number of uncontested rounds in a match of CS," they said on their blog post.

"Because of these changes, exciting competitive matches can be resolved with fewer rounds. And shorter matches mean players can play more, and more often. So with CS2, we’re moving to a maximum of 24 rounds in regulation time (with a 6-round overtime in case of a tie) for Premier, Competitive, and the Majors."

The stats back this claim. Teams have had a full buy (a team value greater than $20k) in 73.3% of non-pistol rounds since Valve’s big changes to the economy in 2019 compared to 67.4% beforehand. They have a competitive semi-buy ($10k+) in 86.5% of rounds now, 3.7% more than at the StarLadder Berlin Major and earlier. It is rare to see full ecos, and even rarer to see teams have to save two rounds in a row.

Changes had previously come to the loss bonus immediately after pistol rounds, starting on $1900 instead of $1400, in October 2018. The aim was to make the third round of a match the first gun round (though that has not quite materialized). On that basis, Valve thinks Counter-Strike is ready to move to MR12. But is it?

This might seem strange to newer viewers, who have gotten used to CS:GO and MR15, but Counter-Strike was not always MR15. At the start of competitive play, tournament admins were the ones who drew up rulebooks with little to no input from Valve. The number of rounds per half that most of the tournaments decided upon, often independently, was 12. The winner would be the first to 13 rounds.

That was the norm for the early seasons of the Cyberathlete Professional League (CPL) in North America, Counter-Strike's biggest tournaments in the early days of the game, until Jason "Alchemister" Baker and Trevor "Midway" Schmidt started to push for a change to MR15.

The reason for this push was, mainly, because of a money exploit. Defusal mode was still tied to the original hostage mode settings, meaning that terrorist players could hide on full ecos and deny counter-terrorists any money. They would have a full buy and a meaningful advantage in the next round. That exploit was so powerful that teams sometimes even used it in gun rounds or overtime, punishing the CTs for not hunting down every last T player.

Griffin "⁠shaGuar⁠" Benger, of "what up now, Swedes" fame, wrote a now-iconic article on gotfrag.com in 2003 pleading for a fix to the bug, one that eventually did arrive. But, by then, MR15 — a change designed to reduce the impact of this exploit, as money had less impact later on in the half — had stuck, and it has remained with us to this day.

In this fashion, you can see MR12 as a course correction rather than a drastic change to keep up with shortening attention spans or to copy VALORANT.

"VALORANT didn’t get MR12 in a vacuum," Alchemist tells HLTV. "Sal 'Volcano' Garozzo is over there, he's an old Counter-Strike guy, and he was like 'Hey, our money system is better. We can do shorter matches.'

"But right now, unless there's a blow-out, it's a commitment to watch Counter-Strike, and there's so much other competition for eyeballs. Give people some instant gratification a little bit."

If we compare our game to traditional sports, we can see just how much time fans are expected to give up to watch a full best-of-three. Modern CS:GO has 15-20 minute breaks between maps, two to three-minute half-times, four 30-second timeouts per team, and far more gun rounds that naturally extend play time.

This is the result: You can watch two Formula One races before the average Counter-Strike three-mapper is finished. Even the commercial-laden NFL wraps up a game before three maps of CS:GO.

In an esport that wants to retain its viewership as fans enter their busy adult lives, it is inevitable that those adult fans — the ones with the pockets deep enough to justify the sponsor-based ecosystem we rely on — will find it hard to follow the scene as well as they might like.

A move to MR12 should bring Counter-Strike 2 into a more comparable zone to other sports, though still just above VALORANT, which has a shorter round and bomb timer.

A slogfest of a best-of-three with overtimes will still cross the three-hour mark more often than not, but the same is true of other set-based sports, and few fans would complain about a long tennis match. Long games, more often than not, mean good games.

Alchemist, who worked on ELEAGUE, believes that MR12 could lead to shorter but higher quality production days

Where MR12 is essential is in bringing the time of the average game down. This also means shorter days for production, who are often working well beyond the 12-hour mark as they need hours to set up before the broadcast and time to break down once the games have wrapped up.

Alchemist, who worked on production for ELEAGUE, believes that the overall level of production would be higher under MR12. "The longer your days go, things get missed," he says.

"It takes a lot of concentration, especially in a game like Counter-Strike, because it's non-stop. A round happens, you come back in, reaction shot, reaction shot, graphic, graphic, replay, replay, and back in. You're pumping all of this stuff into a 20-second window if you're lucky.

"Then you're just cycling as fast as you can and you're on, as a producer, and a director, and a crew, you're on non-stop. The adrenaline of the game helps keep you going, but it's long. It's fucking long. If you can keep overall broadcast days into the 10 to 12-hour range, you're gonna have a better broadcast.”

This is where talk of a return to four best-of-threes in a day with MR12 proves tricky. VALORANT, with its shorter round time, still opts for two series in a day most of the time, with three in group stages.

Some TOs might try anyway, especially in a business that values watched hours so highly (provided staff do not need to be paid for overtime). But for the biggest tournaments, there should be a prioritization of quality over quantity and a realization that less is sometimes more.

After the economy changes, there are far more gun rounds now. But this has come with a negative; rounds, generally, matter less now. A big clutch at 12-12 with both teams low on money might have decided a game in the old economy, but now both teams know they will have a fair few more chances. The overall impact of a clutch or a big play is diluted in a system where it takes so long to economically reset your opponent.

MR12 is a roundabout way of fixing that issue, but it is still something to consider. And, in combination with a lighter load on production (and on fans), shorter games have plenty of benefits.

ropz has questioned the change to MR12 because of the impact of pistol rounds

But what about the downsides? The number one concern is with pistol rounds. "I think I dislike [MR12]," Robin "⁠ropz⁠" Kool said on a recent stream. "It’s gonna be even more random results, they have to change pistol rounds. They have too much impact."

He later expanded on this point on Talking Counter: "Pistol rounds are the most 50-50 thing ever, it’s all about headshots. It comes down to who has the better timing on the peek."

Just ask Marco "⁠Snappi⁠" Pfeiffer and ENCE, who started down 0-3, 0-3, 0-5, and 0-5 in the final four halves of the Gamers8 final against Vitality.

Removing pistol rounds altogether remains unpalatable to ropz and much of the community. "It’s the identity of the game," he says. "You start with pistols and build up the economy."

But change is still needed. Valve’s tweaks to the starting loss bonus have meant that winning the pistol round gives a huge boost to the T side, but barely any for the CT. A 1-0 lead used to give a 55-60% win probability for either side, but that has come down closer to 50% for the CTs.

This is because the Ts are guaranteed a gun round at some point in the first three rounds. They can force with some Galils in round two if they get the bomb down in the pistol round (which gives an extra $800), or they can save if they didn’t plant and still have around $4400 per player in round three.

The CTs have no such luxury. The same figure of $4400 is not enough for a buy in an economy where incendiary grenades are more expensive than Molotovs, defuse kits cost $400, and the M4 costs either $200 or $400 more than the AK-47. Some teams still try, but most opt to force buy in round two with a measly $2000, meaning 3-0 leads are the norm for T sides that win the pistol round.

If you win the pistol round but allow a plant, the Ts sometimes have a stronger buy than the supposedly victorious CTs. In MR12, this is more of a problem. Valve wanted to reduce the impact of the pistol rounds and they have, but their economic changes have made that part of the game even more T-sided than it was before.

Even in gun rounds, it is rare to see Ts have to full eco. The $800 bonus from plants in combination with scaling loss bonuses means a meta of hero AKs or eco rounds from $3500, which still means lots of utility and armored pistols for the CTs to deal with.

The mission of the CTs is not just to win but to win with more than two players alive, so that all five players can be fully equipped. Win a round with one or two alive, and then it is likely the Ts will have a stronger buy than you once again. This is a key reason why saving is so common: The balance has shifted to a point where victory via defusal is often a Pyrrhic one.

Read more
Saving: How bad is it?

If Valve thinks MR12 is the solution to saving, or that this economy is perfect, they are in for a shock. "I get that every round counts a bit more," Rasmus "⁠HooXi⁠" Nielsen tweeted, "but wouldn't you just want to save even more then to be strong in as many rounds as possible, exactly like now?" Throwing your equipment away for a low-percentage retake is even more damaging in a shorter game.

Whatever Counter-Strike started as, it has been MR15 since 2003. The magic number is 16 and, for most CS:GO players, always has been.

MR15 is part of the intangible beauty of CS:GO, which is part of why fans are so resistant to change. Nostalgia plays a role but it is unfair to write off opposition to MR12 as just another example of people wanting to keep things as they are.

Fewer rounds, however good the economy might become, will always lead to randomness in results. There is no escaping that. Best-of-ones should become a thing of the past under this system.

Teams will have to adapt and change game plans faster than before; gone are the days of 7-1 leads turning into 8-7 halves. Pistol rounds might matter less after a few tweaks, but the first gun rounds certainly won’t. Gimmicks and gameplans will be more important, too.

There are also other ways to shorten the game. The biggest reason games are so long is not because of saving but due to the round timer increase to 1:55 at the end of 2015; an average map before then finished before the 50-minute mark.

That change was made to help Ts because of the power of CTs saving smoke grenades, but would it not be possible for the duration of smoke grenades to be shorter and to keep the round timer at 1:45?

For whatever reason, that was not the path Valve ventured down. Max rounds was the easier change to make, one that should be easier to balance with a shorter turnaround before the Copenhagen Major.

Another thing to remember is how punishing Counter-Strike's economy has been for most of its history. MR12 is essentially resetting matches to the amount of gun rounds teams needed to win before the economy update of 2019, by way of removing two-three eco rounds per half. There are now enough gun rounds, even in MR12, that the better-performing team should win in the vast majority of cases.

Still, CTs need more help in the economy. Round three should be a gun round for either side. That doesn’t mean massive changes; a $400 incendiary, $200 defuse kit, and both M4s being $2900 would go a long way towards that. The $800 bonus for planting the bomb on the T side might also need to be reconsidered, perhaps reduced to $400 each and counter-balanced with a $400 CT team reward for defusing the bomb.

These flaws within the economy are part of why best-of-ones still provide random results in MR15, and that will only get worse in MR12. If the Major format remains unchanged for Copenhagen, we will get even wackier results than we had in Paris and Rio.

But ultimately, MR12 does future-proof Counter-Strike. Full MR15 best-of-threes are too long in this meta, and reducing the game time is the easiest way to fix that. Shining a spotlight on the flawed economy may lead to change quicker than in an MR15 system, too.

Like everything in CS2, we should not expect perfection right away. Replacing the best FPS game of the last decade will not come overnight. This is as true of MR12 as it is of the gunplay or movement.

There are pros and cons to the change. There are staunch advocates and passionate detractors. But Counter-Strike will remain Counter-Strike. The game is evolving, and we will have to evolve with it.

Denmark Rasmus 'HooXi' Nielsen
Rasmus 'HooXi' Nielsen
Age:
28
Team:
Rating 1.0:
0.85
Maps played:
952
KPR:
0.57
DPR:
0.68
Canada Griffin 'shaGuar' Benger
Griffin 'shaGuar' Benger
Age:
38
Team:
No team
Rating 1.0:
-
Maps played:
0
KPR:
-
DPR:
-
Estonia Robin 'ropz' Kool
Robin 'ropz' Kool
Age:
23
Team:
Rating 1.0:
1.12
Maps played:
1310
KPR:
0.74
DPR:
0.61
Denmark Marco 'Snappi' Pfeiffer
Marco 'Snappi' Pfeiffer
Age:
33
Team:
Rating 1.0:
0.95
Maps played:
1767
KPR:
0.65
DPR:
0.68
16 better
2023-09-15 09:38
1
13 replies
cricket is not included in the sport list test match lasts for 5 days ODIs last for 6 hrs T20s last for 3 hrs hence csgo is relatively easier to watch
2023-09-15 09:54
0
8 replies
ODI last for 8 hours
2023-09-15 10:51
0
5 replies
Nero, you forgot your national sport blud just to make your point
2023-09-15 10:53
0
4 replies
"And shorter matches mean players can play more" wut
2023-09-15 11:43
0
3 replies
#81
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Finland JooonsMO
With mr15 if you have only 50min time to play you probably wont play competitive match since it could take longer than 50min. With mr12 you have have enough time to play a match.
2023-09-15 14:18
0
1 reply
+1
2023-09-15 18:42
0
Climb ranking quicker?
2023-09-15 14:25
0
+1
2023-09-15 11:54
0
#60
Faceit level 8 Old school: User been here for more than 10 years  | 
zont1x | 
Russia shoras
WRC is not included in the sport list Thursday morning there's shakedown, first stage in the evening. Friday - Sunday there're like 18 more stages of racing. Hence csgo is super easy to watch.
2023-09-15 13:04
0
#54
Old school: User been here for more than 10 years  | 
Belarus dodgev
+1
2023-09-15 12:41
0
+1 Or at least if they made it that you have to get 13 with difference of 3-4 rounds it would be understandable. Blowouts would be quicker but other matches would be normal length.
2023-09-15 13:32
0
no
2023-09-15 13:38
0
#84
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Italy Karimk03
Mr12 with a fixed economy>
2023-09-15 14:24
0
#2
Faceit level 7 Old school: User been here for more than 10 years  | 
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Portugal dracø
economy needs to be adjusted, but all in all it's a return to older times and it isn't as bad as I thought it would be
2023-09-15 09:39
0
2 replies
+1
2023-09-15 10:44
0
#93
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Germany Sol1taire
Counter-strike players hate change, and they will think every single proposal change--no literally, every single one--is bad, until they try it and get used to it. Look at Comment #5 below. that is the SUPREME example of the average CS GO brain
2023-09-15 15:27
0
using the term soccer its joever
2023-09-15 09:39
0
although i like the change for casual play, i believe it worsens the competitive scene
2023-09-15 09:41
0
2 replies
the graph description for the percentage of fullbuys in majors reads 10k instead of 20k
2023-09-15 09:43
0
shorter days for production, who are often working well beyond the 12-hour mark as they need hours to set up before the broadcast and time to break down once the games have wrapped up. they change it because of this, so the casters and rest of the production can get some rest.. they didn't change it because of the players which is so stupid
2023-09-15 17:30
0
Tennis bo5 only 2h 45 minutes? Cmon guys... A Grand Slam final can take perfectly about 5 hours long
2023-09-15 09:43
0
9 replies
#13
Faceit level 10  | 
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United Kingdom NER0cs - HLTV.org
Average includes the 3-0s
2023-09-15 09:58
0
4 replies
You guys just forced the sports graph comparaison to put cs on top of the graph. Also, #18
2023-09-15 10:23
0
3 replies
#50
Faceit level 10  | 
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United Kingdom NER0cs - HLTV.org
I found the sports data before I calculated the CS data so no, not really. Either way i could exclude tennis and make the same point
2023-09-15 12:27
0
2 replies
Why dont you include league of legends? :) Cus then cs wouldnt be #1 anymore. THere's countless of sports/esports that lasts longer than cs, so strawman to just leave them out just to have cs #1 lmao
2023-09-15 18:50
0
league? dota? compared to the other esports i would consider part of the big3 its the fastest.
2023-09-18 07:11
0
#17
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United Kingdom seoseraph
"Average"
2023-09-15 10:05
0
It's still skewed. In Tennis they obviously took the average, because a 3:2s takes ~5 hours. But in CS and Valorant they only took the average lengths of the 2:1s, omitting the 2:0s. Very bad statistics practice.
2023-09-15 13:28
0
2 replies
No
2023-09-15 14:26
0
1 reply
Yes. You can even see how they listed CS:GO 2:0 average time separately.
2023-09-15 14:31
0
#7
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India shoom123
Lord gaben scamer trash CS2
2023-09-15 09:43
0
#9
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Netherlands m1croG
Under EU rules, a trader must repair, replace, reduce the price or give you a refund if goods you bought turn out to be faulty or do not look or work as advertised. Its for you not USA i will go to court and same do alot off people.
2023-09-15 09:44
0
3 replies
#19
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Somalia Lappmaster
Bad bait
2023-09-15 10:09
0
2 replies
#23
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Netherlands m1croG
its not bait its official
2023-09-15 10:33
0
1 reply
#58
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Poland dhuun
Give up. They're not going to give you a refund, Lawyer Andy
2023-09-15 13:04
0
Short game cool but give more money for every loss rounds so that eco doesn't exist. At most only half buys.
2023-09-15 09:44
0
MR12 and bo1, great combo lol
2023-09-15 09:48
0
3 replies
#22
Faceit premium user Faceit level 10  | 
Bakorino | 
Denmark 45ETY
Majors are going to be even more amazing now
2023-09-15 10:32
0
2 replies
#47
Faceit premium user Faceit level 10  | 
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Poland Prince_PKS
i guess majors would not have any BO1 then or at lest not so many
2023-09-15 11:56
0
The article even says, that if majors dont change, then it will be trash and thats true. They have to change the system and make evrrything bo3
2023-09-15 13:09
0
"Soccer" xD
2023-09-15 09:58
0
I already hate days there's already only 2 matches in some days in a big tournament, so the argument to perhaps keep it that way despite shorter matches is a bit disappointing, was hoping we'd rather step up so there's minimum 3 a day (or 4 for other days or double matches at the same time etc). But we'll see what the TOs opt for, CS production teams are quite used to long production days so.
2023-09-15 09:59
0
#16
Old school: User been here for more than 10 years  | 
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Canada p1peb0mb
Where is cricket mr.nero
2023-09-15 10:03
0
#18
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Portugal 7sson
Nero, you're British why you call football soccer, come on
2023-09-15 10:05
0
3 replies
#51
Faceit level 10  | 
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United Kingdom NER0cs - HLTV.org
international site = american english plus american football is really long to write on the side of a graph, football and soccer is just easier plus plus: ez comments farm, ofc
2023-09-15 12:36
0
2 replies
they could've simply written NFL, American Football guys would understand lol
2023-09-15 15:42
0
"international site = american english" That would make sense if the intention is to maximize comprehension. Such as writing "apartment" instead of "flat, "truck" instead of "lorry" etc. But it doesn't make sense to write "soccer" instead of "football" or to use Fahrenheit instead of Celsius when the vast majority of the readers will be more familiar with the latter terms. It's obviously a non-issue, but being pedantic is one of my favourite (favorite) pastimes.
2023-09-16 11:02
0
>less eco rounds now thanks to economy updates, valve’s conclusion: lets make the games shorter Wrong conclusion Valve. The later rounds which are now being removed are more often gun rounds since there’s generally more money available the further you are from a pistol round. So in essence Valve made previous updates to have less eco rounds, now that they got that achieved, they are going to remove a few gun rounds to make the proportion of the remaining eco rounds higher once again. Where’s the logic???
2023-09-15 10:12
0
1 reply
Thats just not true...late in the half, doesnt mean more money
2023-09-15 13:13
0
There should be possibility to skip long saves, especially form T side when CTs are not chasing. In such situations captains of both teams could just end the round. It would work only if both agree otherwise no one should know one of them wanted to end the round.
2023-09-15 10:47
0
2 replies
It wouldn't work, a lack of information is information itself, if you were CT side, its 5v2 for you and you haven't seen or heard anything from the T's in a while, there is 20 seconds on the clock so you hit the "skip save" button but nothing happens, that gives you the info that the T's haven't given up on the round and are about to burst out onto a site so now would be the perfect time for you to dump any utility you still have saved. Alternatively you're on the T side, its again 5v2 and you have the bomb planted, you don't intend to hunt so you hit the "skip save" button but the round doesn't end, the only reason the CT's wouldn't choose to skip the save in that situation is if there is a CT hiding somewhat close to the bomb trying to go for a last minute ninja defuse. The only way a skip save round would work is on LAN and for it to be done by the coaches, coaches can't communicate mid round so them knowing the other team haven't given up on the round wouldn't impact gameplay.
2023-09-15 11:04
0
1 reply
You assume captain who decides to skip save draws that conclusions. Sometimes teams use this moment as a time-out. Leaving decision to coaches is not an option as last seconds ninja defuse can be a surprise even for them and I assume CTs wouldn't skip save when bomb is planted on the off chance some Ts die to a bomb. All I want is the possibility to not watch 1T save a gun for 40-50 seconds. Situations like that are obvious and therefore should be skippable :)
2023-09-15 11:37
0
One of the major reasons there are less "eco" rounds now is due to save meta which wasn't that prevalent in 2017/2018. A 3v3 after plant save from the CT's was rare whilst now its all but a certainty. With a drop to MR12 teams will save less since now every round is more important than before but that will directly increase the number of eco/force-buy rounds. Valve needs to find a way to both kill the save meta and to limit eco rounds since they both make for incredibly boring gameplay/viewership. One way to do this is to add viable force-buy weapons like the UMP & Tec-9 when they were both powerful.
2023-09-15 10:52
0
1 reply
They made it more boring: 1. +5s every round on buy time (20 round game=1m40s of wasted time) 2. Economy is more important, ct are screwed. If t get a good start 5 or 7-0 good luck doing a comeback. 3. Saving is more important, every team will become virtus pro. Nobody is going to attempt a 3vs3 retake, if you lose you get reset and you lose 2 more rounds. Thats if they dont change the economy which they will, sooner or later.
2023-09-15 12:41
0
#31
Faceit plus user Faceit level 4  | 
karrigan | 
Germany Pummel
high quality content, thx for that!
2023-09-15 11:05
0
Great article!
2023-09-15 11:10
0
#33
Old school: User been here for more than 10 years  | 
 | 
Serbia ladasamara
16-14 is the right choice
2023-09-15 11:17
0
Heres my take Valve made this change with no regard to the competitive scene, and only thought about the casual scene when making this change. They justify this change by saying how they fine-tuned the economy throughout the years, yet the change to MR12 actually revealed severe flaws in the current economy system with MR12 in effect. Firstly, pistol rounds now are way too significant in determining which team will run away with an early lead, we have all seen teams in current-day cs go 0-2 in pistols yet still win simply due to having more rounds to deal with the repercussions of an early deficit - once both sides get guns out it's an even playing field. However with MR12, you lose pistol, you do not win the force, you have to eco, you get guns out its already 0-3, you lose this gun round, suddenly its 0-4 and 1/3 of the rounds of the half have already been played out. We've all seen teams go 6-0 or 7-1 down and claw back 9-6 or 8-7, but with MR12, there is much less wiggle room, you need to essentially start streaking together rounds or it over, and not to mention the enemy team at this point already have consolidated their economy, so breaking their bank is even harder, and if you need to string together consecutive, it would be much easier if the enemy team had a weak buy, but if they keep getting guns out, and you go blow for blow in round wins, that's just not good enough for you since you are already at a deficit. Feel free to add on something I might have missed
2023-09-15 11:38
0
2 replies
good comment
2023-09-15 11:49
0
#102
Faceit premium user Faceit level 10  | 
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United States Nani_im_a_bot
True but valve will probably make changes to the economy so it works better for mr12. They were changing aspects of the economy pretty much until 2020 with A1s changes, and they made major economy changes through 2018. If valve doesn’t make changes though then yes mr12 will make games incredibly random and not be great for overall health
2023-09-15 17:16
0
MLB - baseball - was 3:06 in 2022. Now it’s 2:41 this season. Rule changes. Source mlbrun.
2023-09-15 11:40
0
There is no logic. Pure despotism
2023-09-15 11:42
0
Surprises you didn't put stats that absolute majority of games were a team got to 13 rounds first, it wins the game anyway.
2023-09-15 11:47
0
"wahhh wahh the game USED to be MR12!" yeah like 20 fucking years ago, give it a rest
2023-09-15 11:49
0
1 reply
#78
donk | 
Brunei Im_new
20 years ago + it lasted like 2 weeks + it's not because it used to be a thing that it must be re added
2023-09-15 14:14
0
Where cricket in major sports? Kids nowadays can't even watch 3 hour long match whereas gigachad test cricket enjoyers watch 5 day match
2023-09-15 11:53
0
2 replies
+1 it was left off bc it didnt help prove the point they were trying to make lmao
2023-09-15 12:47
0
1 reply
#74
Old school: User been here for more than 10 years  | 
 | 
World streetson
exactly lmao
2023-09-15 13:52
0
#48
B1ad3 | 
Finland n3iki
Great change, I've been saying the second point for ages. Mathces need to be shorter to attract larger audience to watch esports.
2023-09-15 12:06
0
Great article and its easy to agree with the main sentiment: From the choices available to reduce match lenghts, mr12 is easiest to make compared to the timesave it gives. I think its lazy, if safe, way to do things. Finding ways to reduce amount of overtimes or saving would have been the ways I prefer. I don't think the matchlenght in itself is problem, more the fact that I don't know how long the match lasts. But that may be just me. I mainly dislike it for two reasons: It increases randomness, which I think is a problem for any sport. Better should win more often than not and if thats unreliable, cs2 loses some of its value as sport. Pistol round problem being just this taken further. It limits how much conditioning teams can do within a game to the other team. I think this is one of the more interesting aspect of the pro games. Is is offset by the teams counterstratting? Either way, possibilities to do stuff like this is definitely less in mr12, since it takes few gun rounds to set up conditioning either way.
2023-09-15 12:20
0
There is no logic. Valve are dumb but maybe just happy
2023-09-15 12:48
0
#59
 | 
Russia 2rtle
great atrticle btw
2023-09-15 13:04
0
#64
Faceit level 9  | 
Twistzz | 
Canada PurgeIWNL
What's good about MR12 is that it will make it possible for more tournaments to be decided with BO5 grand finals like Kato and Cologne, and BO1s could become irrelevant at Major Qualifiers, making big upsets way more unlikely. We'll see how it works out, but hopefully Valve will be open to reverting the change if they see that it doesn't get good reception from the pro scene
2023-09-15 13:10
0
#66
 | 
England BobDude65
Yeah I ain’t reading all that
2023-09-15 13:15
0
As long as they tweak the economy a bit and MR12 replaces Bo1s I think it would be a great change
2023-09-15 13:19
0
Logic : Valorant is using it If valorant didnt exist,mr12 in 2023 neither
2023-09-15 13:33
0
#73
 | 
Germany j0nnZ
Elaborate and unbiased reasoning, well done
2023-09-15 13:44
0
#75
 | 
Egypt BomberMan_
Just do chargers only already. Guaranteed exact time for matches and it fixes all the problems you just change the half timer.
2023-09-15 13:58
0
#76
 | 
Armenia VirtusNo
bro does long ass article when we all know its because Valorante
2023-09-15 14:03
0
nice an amercian made this graph..
2023-09-15 14:05
0
#80
donk | 
Brunei Im_new
Insanely biased article imo... Did you get paid by valve to spread this propaganda?
2023-09-15 14:18
0
#82
 | 
Ukraine Belgorod
Good thread!
2023-09-15 14:21
0
#83
 | 
Finland JooonsMO
I have long wanted a shorter matches but I feared that mr12 is going to suck since I really didnt like mr8. After playing around 40 matches my opinion changed bit. mr12 is ok but I still enjoy mr15 more. What I always wanted (and still want) is shorter rounds not less rounds. Round timer 1:55->1:45, bomb timer 40->35, timeouts 4x30->2x30 and shorter halftime and map breaks for pro scene. Shorter bomb timer would mean less retakes but that could be combatted with cheaper kits and/or shorter defuse time without kits (maybe 8sec).
2023-09-15 14:23
0
#88
Faceit level 10  | 
SPUNJ | 
Croatia FoxerHR
How do you use a redditor graph without verifying if it's correct or not?
2023-09-15 14:35
0
#89
 | 
France Nanynoodle
meta rn = ct sided mr 12 = t sided they brought balance to the force
2023-09-15 14:40
0
#90
Faceit premium user Faceit level 9  | 
Norway matsdeff
I would much rather prefer Valve making the rounds shorter, instead of having fewer rounds. Fewer rounds will just mean more random results. And if we look at the last couple of majors, aren't the results random enough?
2023-09-15 14:47
0
It's not ready.
2023-09-15 14:59
0
#92
 | 
Germany Sol1taire
just here to see the dumb, negative "no 16 better" 3 word comments
2023-09-15 15:25
0
1 reply
#97
 | 
Albania mensik
for pros like always better but real experience will hit you
2023-09-15 16:06
0
"This also means shorter days for production, who are often working well beyond the 12-hour mark as they need hours to set up before the broadcast and time to break down once the games have wrapped up." Maybe, just maybe, change your crew after 6/8 hours instead of keeping them for "well beyond the 12-hour mark"?
2023-09-15 15:49
0
2 replies
Exactly, but nno what for. This means more salaries to be paid - that unacceptable. !!! You haven't been active recently and cannot post replies repeatedly within five minutes !!! Can you get rid of that shit? I don't and won't post often. There is no reason to punish me.
2023-09-15 16:49
1
1 reply
#128
Old school: User been here for more than 10 years  | 
donk | 
World HOWMUCHHOWMUCH
as a fellow lurker, i agree
2023-09-18 16:52
1
#96
 | 
Albania mensik
so no ecos eh?
2023-09-15 16:05
0
No fuck that. I do not want to watch warm ups. The game will stop before it will begin. There is an excellent English saying this crying this situation: do not fix what is not a broken.
2023-09-15 16:42
0
People are doing all this goofy analyzing trying to act like valve cares about how long the games are, the truth is that the ONLY reason they’re making it mr12 was because the CASUAL community (matchmaking) played short matches a lot. They clearly don’t care about their most passionate players.
2023-09-15 17:05
0
#101
Old school: User been here for more than 10 years  | 
 | 
France StickyRice
Time for a BO3 3rd place decider on the last day of the Major and obviously a BO5 final. No more excuses to keep a BO3 final, if it's now MR12.
2023-09-15 17:14
0
1 reply
#129
Old school: User been here for more than 10 years  | 
donk | 
World HOWMUCHHOWMUCH
from an integrity of competition viewpoint youre right. but from a TO's perspective why do they care; i assume the advertisers have paid upfront and the longer a tournament goes, the more it costs them.
2023-09-18 17:01
0
#104
Old school: User been here for more than 10 years  | 
 | 
Serbia chupe
This is really stupid, because commercials and stupid long ass breaks are the reason why matches are that long. Ive looked up some games on faceit that ended 16-14 and they all lasted 40-45 minutes on average. Without stupid commercials and half time breaks, pauses between games that are 30 minutes long like they were actually holding guns and bombs and were running in those games and not sitting in those comfy chairs, full bo3 would probably be 2 hours long
2023-09-15 18:14
0
5 replies
+1 also all the fake tech pauses
2023-09-15 18:59
0
#110
 | 
China Mahiro
this lmao
2023-09-15 21:50
0
+1
2023-09-15 22:06
0
This. If we for example check EPL matches. 3 minute break between halves, 15 min break between maps. Thats already 40 minutes in Bo3. Add tactical timeouts (12 minutes) and few tec pauses and suddenly you have around 1 hour of "wasted" time in that 3h 30min match
2023-09-16 01:04
0
1 reply
#130
Old school: User been here for more than 10 years  | 
donk | 
World HOWMUCHHOWMUCH
and if vp is playing, its even longer
2023-09-18 17:03
0
Rare NER0 L. Why divide CSGO's 2-1s and 2-0s, while bars for other sports include everything (like quick blow-outs)
2023-09-15 19:02
0
1 reply
he also didnt collect data from sports that take longer than cs 100% biased and tried his best to put csgo at the top of the list
2023-09-17 02:10
0
MR12 is casual trash, don't worry kids they'll fill even more airtime with ads and bo3s will get even longer with filler content
2023-09-15 19:25
0
#112
 | 
Ukraine ksay
mr12 feels unnecessary slightly shorter matches with higher RNG economy needs tuning the only meaningful positive for me is bo5 final at the major and no bo1 during the groups
2023-09-15 23:41
0
Well-argued... I think this will be a change for the better for the environment.
2023-09-16 02:23
0
404
2023-09-16 15:35
0
#119
ness | 
Canada ssau
A solution to the pistol round being too impactful. Adjust the money system slightly. So that a third round buy can actually be a very healthy buy if you save second round after losing pistol. I already don’t think it’s going to be a huge deal because generally people buy third round anyways unless they force. But it’s usually not a perfect buy and sometimes this round is also lost as a result. More so for CT’s anyway
2023-09-16 15:36
0
MR12 + keeping loss bonus at 1400$ = valve dont know how their own game works
2023-09-17 02:09
0
Great post by HLTV as per usual! Personally, as a very quick summary, MR12 is the future (also I think they should reduce the round timer to 1:50 but one step at a time), but realistically, MR12 if better if they somehow make it so whatever the situation, unless you are saving an AWP, it is worth it to go for a round and not save, and also you get a half buy basically every round. Full Ecos should really dissapear
2023-09-17 13:16
0
#124
Faceit level 8  | 
HUNDEN | 
Slovenia marcelyx3
TLDR: there is no logic we need to take care of the valulrant 2 second attention span tiktok addicted 3 year olds
2023-09-17 20:05
0
#126
Old school: User been here for more than 10 years  | 
REAL | 
Spain deBurrows
Great article NEROcs!
2023-09-18 11:32
0
Only one question remans: Will Jame still save?
2023-09-18 16:35
0
#132
 | 
France Saifu
Honestly, I already dislike this, there's already only 2 matches in some days in a big tournament, so the argument to perhaps keep it that way despite shorter matches is a bit disappointing, was hoping we'd rather step up so there's minimum 3 a day (or 4 for other days or double matches at the same time etc). But we'll see what the TOs opt for, CS production teams are quite used to long production days so.
2023-09-20 19:20
0
here's valve's logic for mr12: it is good for advertisers, tournament organizers & valve – and bad for literally everyone else
2023-10-06 19:56
0
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