Bogdan: "When I saw jcobbb shooting in practice, it was incredible. Insane"

Five months after putting the team together from scratch, Bogdan's Apogee are making a dream run happen at PGL Bucharest.

After making a surprise appearance at PGL Bucharest with a successful campaign in the grueling closed qualifier, Betclic continue to make a dream run happen at the main event itself as one of the biggest underdogs.

A slow start in a match against FURIA gave way to two big victories against The MongolZ and Astralis, and now the Poles look to make their two chances to make it to the playoffs count.

Following the victory against the Danes, Betclic's coach, Jędrzej "⁠Bogdan⁠" Rokita, spoke to HLTV about putting the team together almost from scratch late last year after seeing the former lineup reach its maximum, and breaking through the glass ceiling in their first big LAN appearance in Bucharest.

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Tell us a little about this team, that qualified through the qualifier and is one of the lower-ranked teams here along with Legacy. You've had a great start here, a big win against The MongolZ yesterday, a big win today against Astralis. Going 2-1, is it a position you expected you'd be in today?

We certainly knew that we can play and win. Our goal was to get to the playoffs. The minimum goal was to win at least one match, and we already achieved that, but we aim to make it out of the group stage because we're capable of doing so. The only question mark is the LAN environment.

So many new players, we have two guys who played like two local LANs each, only Demho being the experienced one at an RMR, Prism playing some smaller Polish LANs, the young guns playing some Polish local LANs, and jcobbb nothing, zero, he never played outside of his home, so this is incredible. But I knew that if we can do the same thing we did in the qualifier, and as we're doing in practice, we can easily beat those teams. We've been practicing against these teams, and of course, practice is not the same thing, but the quality of the game and the quality of the headshots have been incredible.

First of all, tell me a bit about the team itself because Apogee signed the old brazylijski luz team last year, but then the team was completely changed. Only you and Prism remained. How did that all happen?

brazylijski luz were quite promising. I signed, with the boss, CEO Gonçalo [Brandeiro], we signed brazylijski luz as they were promising and had good results. They were in ESL Challenger, but after some time, I knew that we had reached a ceiling, and we had to basically change players. At one point, we just gambled because teams usually change like one or two players, right? But we went with a complete rebuild.

Demho was already in, so it was three players that got swapped at the same time. It was a big risk, but at the time we took brazylijski luz, it was a ready product. It was five players that had played with each other for more or less two years, but I knew that the potential wasn't there to make it as far as we already made it here, so I knew that we had to revamp the team.

I saw hfah destroying us in some Polish qualifier in another mix. He was insane; his awareness, his aim, he basically slapped us two times. I knew hypex, I studied him, so I knew he was available, and same with jcobbb, he was known as the biggest aimer in Poland, he just wasn't made for playing team CS because he hadn't done so, only in 9INE and it wasn't his strong suit.

We put it all together, and Prism is a great captain. He's been learning, he's been developing, as it's a quite new role to him, but he's already insane and he's bringing a lot of firepower, as we saw today, and Demho, I think he's one of the best teammates I've had. He's so professional, and he's a great anchor/lurker. He gets the job done, he's just so reliable, and he has so much class. He's lovely!

You and Prism have been around for a while now, and this is the biggest chance you've had at this level, especially after having gotten some wins now. How important is being here in Bucharest for you guys?

I had my chance half a year ago in GamerLegion, as the assistant coach, and I learned a lot there. I gained some nice experiences through these LANs because I had the opportunity to travel with the team for half a year, and I saw the environment, how teams do it, and how ash does it.

All of these experiences I got there and through my old teams, I'm teaching these guys, they have a lot of potential, and Prism also, he's learning. It's super important. It's great. It's a big stepping stone. We didn't forfeit our chance for the MRQ, but we basically didn't play the Astana qualifier just to play at the bootcamp before this tournament. We had a tight situation with the points, anyway. We just put it on one card, that we make it at Galaxy STARTER, but we didn't, we lost points there, so we just said, 'OK, either one or two, we make it or we don't.'

My biggest priority was this tournament because I knew that if we can get some wins and the money, we'll get many points for the VRS, and that will prolong our chances to get invites to other cups, other LANs, and that was my aim. Happily, we already made it because I think we got like 50-something points for the Astralis win. That puts us at 20-something or 30-something [in the VRS], and that's a great rank to have, right? And this is maybe not the beginning because we have two more chances to make it to the playoffs, so... It's wonderful, this is great.

I was looking through the results from the closed qualifier, and you guys beat NIP and fnatic there; now you beat Astralis here. If this were a few years ago, you'd be the best team in the world. Of course, they're not what they used to be, but the names are still big. How much has that played into you believing in yourselves or getting extra confidence and motivation to keep going?

It made us who we are right now, basically. We started the qualifier just to get some wins and some points. It was a dream, fugazi, somewhere in the future that we can make it. We were taking one match each, looking at the points and trying to grind them. Of course, the vision was somewhere there, but we just had that great mentality of playing one match at a time, and our psychologist, Anja [Suder], also helped us to put our heads in the game, right? And then we made the playoffs.

I think the biggest raid boss was BetBoom, we looked at them as the big names. NIP, with the revamps, they have some nice names, but they have their issues. But when we beat BetBoom, we just believed, right? We beat them so hard, and we played great.

Then the team believed in themselves, every player knew we can do great things, and the team mentality and the calmness, and the maturity, is insane. I'm telling you. I've had a few Polish teams, I've been in two international teams, and the level of maturity and calmness — and skill, obviously —, is insane in these guys. I'm so happy that these are the guys that I hand picked from the Polish scene, and I'm so happy that we did it.

I want to double back on the experience. A couple of Polish LANs, jcobbb even playing at home only... Is this the perfect event for a team like Apogee to come to? Is it a good environment for the team to get their bearings?

Yeah, it's a perfect event. No top teams, and it's in a studio, so it's not a real LAN. It's a bootcamp with people shouting next door, right? And we have noise cancellation, which is great, because you hear better with those earphones. So getting this chance, not meeting Vitality and Spirit, is great. We can roll over The MongolZ, which we considered a great team, and we still consider them [a great team]! It's a huge opponent, right? And now Astralis...

You know, we thought that we matched better with FURIA, but that was the first match. That was full stress. That was a lack of headshots. That was the first LAN experience. We lacked everything. We had prep, we knew what we had to do, but the mid-round decisions, the headshots... It was all missing. I'm grateful for the Swiss format as well. This is the best, to be honest. If we lost the first match and had the knife at our throat, it would have been way different. Two matches and you're out, GSL, whatever... But Swiss gives you that additional chance, and it's great for our team.

I understand there was a bit of contention in the match against Astralis today. I'm not sure if it was trash-talking or if something happened in-game, but it seemed like you were talking about it after the match. Could you tell me a bit about what went on?

Yes, one of the Astralis players, I don't know if it was banter or he was trying to piss us off, he was typing in all chat 'hahaha' or like 'nice try, we know this one when you try to fake.' I don't know if it was enjoying the match and just bantering, or he was trying to fuck a bit with our head, but we said 'nice try' to him while shaking hands, so we returned the favor. And he said 'thank you,' so we're all good. It tasted better after this, for sure.

One of the bigger talking points in Apogee is jcobbb. He's a guy that a lot of people are starting to put their eye on and say, 'Hey, this guy maybe has that special thing to become a big player.' Can you comment on that?

Yeah, I gave an interview while signing this roster saying that jcobbb shoots as hard as Twistzz or NiKo. When I saw him in practice, and that was practice, of course, but when I saw him shooting in practice, it was incredible. Insane. Like, I haven't seen anything like that. His aiming style, his tracking, his sharpness, and speed, and how he syncs his mouse with his keyboard is insane. It's another level, top tier.

I said this and a lot of people... Not laughed at me, but were like, 'NiKo, Twistzz, how can it be like that?' And now he's proving it. He did it online, and he's doing it on LAN now. I think he's insane. I think he developed a lot on our team because his comms and his team skills were poor, but I put in extra work. I sat with him many times watching demos and trying to work on his comms, and he had it in him, for sure.

It's not something you can learn that quick, he had it in him, he just had to open himself up because he's quite introverted. But yeah, he's just insane. He's one for the future, for sure.

Anja, your psychologist, is karrigan's wife. Do you think there could be, in the case that you face them, a conflict of interest?

No, not at all. I know how professional karrigan and Anja are, and there's no chance that there will be some kind of conflict of interest or leak of information. karrigan wouldn't want to know any of it, and Anja wouldn't do it, so there's no chance. I look forward to playing FaZe. I'd like to play FaZe; they're a great team, and it's a great name to knock down.

You said the first goal was to get a win, and then hoping for playoffs. What's the feeling for you now. What possibilities do you see for the team here?

Still make it to the playoffs. We have to close it out and win the third game. We have two chances. Playoffs don't differ that much, right? It's still the studio, so it will be just another match, I hope. If we keep the same mentality and the same skill, I'm telling you, this team is great. We've had some great matches, we showed it. We gained some confidence, so sky is the limit right now at this tournament.

As one of the smaller teams, what do you think it takes for a team like yours to start the journey upwards? Where are you on the ladder, and what do you need to get to the next step?

First and foremost, is to not get our players bought out by the big teams because that completely destroys your structure and you have to rebuild. Now, with the VRS, you can't get three players bought out, or you're totally done as an organization, basically, as soon as you don't buy other players.

I'd say that when you want to reach that level, you have to grind a lot but then get lucky. I said that to my CEO, and he laughed. He said, 'You create your luck,' and stuff like that, and 'Preparation defeats luck.' His mentality is great, and he reads a lot of books. He's smart, but I told him that if it comes to qualifiers and making it through these kinds of qualifiers, it's luck. It has to be a lot of skill, a lot of prep, and luck.

You have to get lucky matches, lucky wins sometimes, timings help you sometimes, you have to win pistols... Of course, the game is the game, but there's a lot of randomness. If you have an eight-match in a row [winning streak], you have to get lucky a few times, right? So if you want to reach this kind of tournament and make a run, you have to be good, you have to prep, you have to work hard, but in the end you need some luck on your side.

I did it with my first team, AVEZ, in 2020. We made it to the Flashpoint closed qualifier, we went from the open to the closed, we won the five matches, we made it to the LAN, and we failed there, but still, we made that run that put us in the ranking, and then we could get other players, right? So this is the same, but here we're using the chance, playing well, and earning points.

Poland is such a rich country, historically, in Counter-Strike, because of the legacy of the Golden 5, but after that, it seems like interest has gone down...

It was there when 9INE was playing at they made it to the Major, there was like 100,000 people watching.

Yeah, but also even when streamers would turn on Twitch and people would start watching, there was just more excitement around Counter-Strike. These days, it seems it has kind of settled, and some of the hope was lost. Do you think you can be a spark and try to get some of that old interest back? Maybe be that Polish team that can fight to reraise the scene back up?

Maybe not raise the scene because that's a huge process, but I hope we'll be a beacon of hope for the teams. I want to make it even higher, and I want to maintain the team I have — not lose the players, as I said. Then we can work harder and longer to try and make it, but it's a complex situation. There has been a loss of money with the orgs. They stopped having money to sign teams. There's also the issue with the lack of coaches.

I'm an ex-caster. I started casting, and the mix of hades, KEi, and Kylar, they just saw me casting well at an event, like I know the game, and they said, 'Can you support us mentally? You know the game, so just come chill with us and come support us.' And that's how I became a coach. That was like seven years ago. But there's a lack of coaches, for sure.

The old players, let's say from AGO or Kinguin, didn't go into coaching, so we lacked coaching at some point. When we had lots of teams there was no coaching. Money, and no coaching legacy, like the knowledge hasn't been passed. That's the main thing. The knowledge hasn't been passed down from the big names of NEO and TAZ. They tried HONORIS, right? But that didn't work out really well. I was in HONORIS for three months, so I learned from both of them, both of the legends...

But we have players. As you see, these names weren't big. I found hfah, he wasn't known, hypex played a bit in 9INE Academy, jcobbb played in 9INE a bit, but it's possible... It's possible with the right approach, with coaching and good backing from the org. I have to say all of the nice things I can about Betclic Apogee. They're helping us, the CEO is great, he's always influencing, we have the support of Anja, so... Yeah, I don't know how to answer the question, but I hope you can make something of the answer.

Now that you have a couple of high-profile wins, people are watching. It's on LAN, against big teams. Are you ready for people to study you extra hard now?

Yeah, but they can't do much. I mean, they can read something, but we have a really nice playbook, and I'm really proud of that with Prism. We have so many things, so many nice things, and the players worked hard to remember this, to dry run it a thousand times. We can change up our play style if we want to, we can do lots of stuff, so I'm not afraid because we keep on changing, we keep on evolving.