zews interview: Liquid's issues, cadiaN's leadership, and future

The Brazilian coach sat down with HLTV for a long interview about his rollercoaster of a Liquid stint and what he hopes to do next.

Liquid's 2024 season began with high expectations after a slew of blockbuster moves but it crashed and burned early in one of the biggest flops in recent years.

Seven months on, the team has already moved on from Felipe "⁠skullz⁠" Medeiros, Casper "⁠cadiaN⁠" Møller and head coach Wilton "⁠zews⁠" Prado. Another rebuild has been made, and Russel "⁠Twistzz⁠" Van Dulken is taking the team's reins for the first time in his career as he hopes to steer the ship back on course.

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In an interview with HLTV, zews recalled "a very big fight" around the end of January. That was when the problems began to take hold. "From then on I could see it unfold," he said. "So it didn't happen overnight, it was something that snowballed, let's put it that way. And it's not like things changed completely, but we began to see a clash of ideas, playing styles and personalities."

The Brazilian confirmed the public notion that the team didn't fully buy into cadiaN's system and that the Danish IGL struggled to adapt to a new style. Still, he refused to lay all the blame on cadiaN. "It wasn't just because of one person that it failed. It was a systemic thing where we couldn't make this incompatibility compatible, so to speak."

zews is keeping his options open, though coaching doesn't seem to be high on his list of priorities. Asked what he would like to do next, he said that he would entertain a General Manager role — which would give him the sort of freedom he lacked at Liquid — and broadcast opportunities. "In the meantime, I'll keep doing my thing here and trying to contribute the best way I can."

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I first wanted to ask how you would describe your time at Liquid and what goals were set when you joined the organization at the end of last year?

If I were to describe my time at Liquid in a few words, it would be... Short and disappointing. I guess those are the words I'd use. The goals were, in the first season, obviously, to make the Major. That was the most important one and it hurt us a lot.

But in the grand scheme of things, my role with Liquid was about establishing the team long-term. So we were going to chase ranking points to get invites, since we were starting from scratch. Because it's chaos, right? The scheduling and traveling... When you have to play these open qualifiers, especially with our team being from “North America” and traveling between regions…

We wanted, of course, to qualify for the Major, but the most important thing was to establish ourselves as a top 16 or top 10 team that could be directly qualified [for events]. So, with Liquid, I had a bigger vision of where we wanted to go, but the immediate focus was on making this line-up work and positioning ourselves in the rankings.

I'd also like to ask you a little about how the team was put together. When you joined the team, the signings hadn't yet been made. How did the team come about? Who was involved in the process and what was your role, in particular, in putting the team together?

[General Manager] Jokasteve sent me a message asking if I was doing anything. He told me about reformulating the project and at first it was something completely different… It would be with oSee, Brehze and a full NA lineup - but there was the possibility of making an alternate blockbuster roster that he had been working on.

cadiaN, twistzz, YEKINDAR and NAF but instead of skullz, it would be KSCERATO. He wanted me to try and help bring him in, which we ultimately couldn't do because he didn't really want to leave [FURIA] at the time, right? He wanted to stay there and build.

It was very important for Liquid to keep that NA spot and in terms of availability, there weren't that many players on the market at the time that could do that, play up to the level of the other four players and that would get the team to sign up as we were on a deadline to make it happen or it would all fall apart. So I had to come up with a good alternative to make it happen...

But when it came to defining the pieces, Twistzz, cadiaN and eventually skullz, who essentially made that decision? Was it your move?

No, it was a consensus. Joka had already basically put it all together and I wouldn't have been able to have that sort of power despite what everyone thinks. But it was a consensus as everyone believed in the team's potential. There was a lot of talking, especially with cadiaN and Twistzz. At the time, Twistzz was a very valuable and important piece for Liquid and we were uncertain if he would be joining. With cadiaN, it was more or less certain that he would come.

So for Twistzz… He was really keen to come to Liquid at the time, then FaZe started having great results and he needed to decide where to go. And Twistzz really liked skullz's game. And he said, 'If this kid comes, I'll join the team.' So we sped up the discussions with him. skullz was a guarantee that we'd get Twistzz, me, cadiaN, and that the lineup would be locked in.

Can you explain a little bit more about your role in managing the team?

When it comes to setting up the team, I didn't have that much power, and the work had already been done by Joka, so credit to him for pulling that off. But in terms of managing the team after it was assembled, I can’t hide from my responsibilities. I had management power, but things were decided by a committee at Liquid, and I think that's one of the problems that we had.

There wasn't one voice, and it wasn't my voice, Joka's or [Performance Manager] Edward's. Everything was decided by a committee, and from my experience, leading by a committee doesn't work. You have to take all the input and feedback and make appropriate decisions but you have to follow a specific line of thinking, you can't go and try to please everyone.

There has to be a voice of command, essentially, right?

Exactly. That was necessary and nobody had that power. I tried at times, but it wasn't possible.

There was a lot of talk about those team-building activities you did at the end of the year, even before you started competing. They gave the impression that everyone got on well, that you were building a good atmosphere. In your opinion, when did you start to feel the first problems in the team?

I think the only bad thing about those activities was that we did content around them. Personally, I think they were really cool, I thought the atmosphere on the team at the start was really good.

It's really hard to pinpoint when it all changed. I think there was a very big fight within the team that I remember, around the end of January or February. And from then on I could see it unfold. So it didn't happen overnight, it was something that snowballed, let's put it that way. And it's not like things changed completely, but we began to see a clash of ideas, playing styles and personalities.

Given the signs that were already there within the team, was the fact that you didn't qualify for the Major a surprise or did you almost fear that it might happen?

It was certainly a surprise, but not in the sense that we didn't know it was possible. But we also knew that we could qualify and the scrims had gone well. I think that a bit of the pressure and expectation we had led to this, along with key decisions in games…

And the format as well, no?

Unfortunately, it was terrible, it cost us, but it was the format we had and we had to qualify regardless, right? So I think it was more because we weren't prepared or ready yet and we weren't a real team in terms of unity, let's put it that way, in terms of the mentality of knowing how to play together.

And how was the leadership and the way of approaching the game managed? Because it does seem like that there were many voices within the team and that it wasn't possible to reach a compromise of how the team should play on the server.

At the start of the team, I did everything I could to put cadiaN as the leader and captain, so that everyone could follow the calls and his ideology and really embrace his leadership.

So I think… throughout these problems and these disagreements and incompatibilities, it started to change. There was an attempt to adapt to a style where there was more than one way for us to make rotations and play the game. Because as much as there was a leadership style, there was a bit of, let's say, difficulty in how this leadership was received by the team.

This leadership was gradually lost halfway in, partially due to some of cadiaN's own decisions and partially due to some harsh resistance and opposition put up by some players. Then the big problem we had was how to restructure the leadership moving forward. cadiaN would keep calling, but we would have our own style with everyone's ideas and inputs. And that's where I think this gap of incompatibility and disagreement grew. Because we saw that the ideas for how we wanted to play and even the roles we wanted to have in the game were very different.

Since the players left the team there has been a lot of talk about the incompatibilities within the team, specifically about how some players in the team might not have believed in cadiaN's system, where, like on HEROIC, he was commanding the troops all the time and the players fully trusted him. And there has also been talk of cadiaN maybe not being able to adapt to the needs of the team and the way the players wanted to play. Is that really how it was?

It was more or less like this. Of course, it's never black and white. I think we got some good things from cadiaN's system. The difference is that he had always played with players who would follow him blindly but that didn't have that much experience or skill at the beginning. And Liquid's players had already won a lot, which, yes, creates difficulty in how you receive [certain things] but also brings a lot of experience. They are players who are capable of making their own decisions, and we would force some situations with this blind trust that later, when we reviewed the games and we saw the scores, we saw that not only was it not the best decision, but it wasn't how we wanted to play.

So yes, there was very strong opposition from players, but there was also difficulty from cadiaN to adapt to this new style. It wasn't just because of one person that it failed. It was a systemic thing where we couldn't make this incompatibility compatible, so to speak.

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Looking back, do you think it was just a matter of cadiaN being the wrong leader for the team?

To put it shortly, yes, but not because of incompetence or anything like that. I think he's a real captain, I think he's a leader above all, which is very important. He has that leadership profile and he requires the players to trust him. So I think he was not the right leader for this team for these reasons. I also came to this conclusion later on and was on board with the decision, so I was part of the process of thinking that cadiaN would not be the right leader for this team, but I don't think it's just because of him, but rather because I didn’t see a future where they would be working well together and thus were the wrong fit.

I wanted to ask you about skullz, someone a lot of people associated with you. Because he's also Brazilian and he didn't have that much tier-one experience, he always seemed to be your gamble. Why do you think it didn't work out and he was unable to show what many expected?

I think skullz's association with me is kind of logical, right? Part of my duties was to bring in that fifth player who wouldn't be from Europe to help with the spots. Even though, as I said, it wasn't just me, it would be unfair not to take responsibility. What failed in his case? Hard to say, a little bit of homesickness was part of it, because it was a different experience for him.

It was his first international experience. He's fluent in English, but there's a difference between speaking in English and having to communicate in milliseconds. So that hurt [a bit] in the beginning, just like the pre-season retreat and the fact that people were speculating on his buyout and there was already some pressure because of it. And also the fact that the team already had renowned players, who can teach you, but at the same time, they can criticize you, right? Getting feedback from your idols is a tricky thing…

And in the beginning, I think he was criticized a lot internally. He was our scapegoat from the start. So, from the start, it made things difficult for him. And he was the one who had the hardest job, right? He was our youngest player and had to play positions and learn some slightly different roles to be a more complete player, so I feel he didn't show his true potential. He's very good, and I believe that in FURIA, communicating in his native language and now with this experience, he's going to play better. I believe that if you ask him, he'll say that on Liquid he only had a few moments where he showed that he knew what he was doing. In general, he suffered a lot there emotionally and mentally, and even in terms of the system and role within the game, which I recognize we didn't put him in the best position to succeed.

How do you think that he will fare at FURIA?

With him being a Brazilian player coming from Liquid, I think he will bring some new things that he saw. I think he'll play much more loosely, much more comfortably, and the atmosphere will be much better in terms of making him feel at home and not isolated. I was there with him, but I'm 36 and his coach, right? There’s only so much I can do to make him feel comfortable. We live different lives, so the best I could do is support him and be there with him. I think he will do well at FURIA and I hope to see him keep growing and show what he’s capable of.

Speaking about your departure from Liquid, how was this whole process managed? Did you discuss the possibility of staying with the team? Was it your decision or a mutual one?

The last few months of Liquid were really complicated because there was a lot of uncertainty about what would happen. We had unhappy players and different scenarios [were being considered]. To be honest, I didn't think I was going to leave until I got to Brazil and had a chat with Joka. Everything changed. I had even been under the impression that it was guaranteed that I wouldn't leave now, that we would restructure things, that there was still time to get things in order. So it wasn't my decision.

But I admit that I was very unhappy towards the end. I had sacrificed my health a lot, and we weren’t bringing in the results we wanted. I always believed that, for a team to be a champion or consistently good, everyone must want to be there, which wasn't the case for us. So this led to a lot of unhappiness within the team, on my part and on the part of some of the other players there. So it wasn't a mutual decision, I don't think anyone wanted it in the end, nor did they know how it would turn out. So much so that I received messages from the players, like, 'I thought you were doing well, we were doing well, I don't know what happened.' But Liquid had to make a difficult decision and that was the result in the end, right? That's life.

What sort of demands would you have made if you were to stay?

I wouldn't be making demands to stay because I love Liquid. As much as it was a sad experience in the end, we had great moments, the players like the people there, I think they're good human beings. So I wouldn't have made demands to stay but I would have made recommendations. I believe a team needs to have players who want to be there. That would have been my first recommendation. The second one: if there wasn't a leadership, we needed to establish one. We needed a voice everyone would listen to, follow and believe in. For me, that was one of the main points.

But for me, the most important aspect was to get some things right: the culture we had within the team, the team mentality and the way people interacted with each other, because a lot of stuff was being handled behind the scenes instead of being addressed directly or even telling the person at times that there was discontentment so they could fix it. We had high standards to keep and live up to, but they were internalized and sometimes not even known. The player next to you was never asked to maintain those high standards. And I think those would be the main points to change for next season, in terms of the culture of the team, so that it could move towards being a really top-tier competitive team.

Were you surprised by Twistzz's decision to be an IGL? Do you think he will succeed in the role?

To give credit to Twistzz, I think he has a lot of in-game knowledge. Towards the end of our Liquid tenure, I would say that 90 to 95% of our tactics, our playbook, and playing methodology were being created by Twistzz and YEKINDAR already. It had already gone from cadiaN by the end as we knew a move was going to happen, and Twistzz proved to be very capable. But at the same time, being a leader and an IGL is about much more than having a playbook and in-game knowledge. It's about leadership, how you treat your teammates, how you get the best out of them, how you deliver them the bad news to hold them to those high standards.

So I believe he has a lot of work to do and to prove himself in terms of leading men. But in terms of his ability as a captain and strategist... He's got that in spades, and he probably is, in my opinion, one of the top five players in the world with the most knowledge. Now he just needs to learn the human side and the leadership side.

You said just before that one of Liquid's main goals during the initial stage was to consolidate the team in the top 16 or top 10. The fact is that, when the changes happened, the team was ranked 11th in the world. Do you think there was a possibility that the team wouldn't go through so many changes? Perhaps changing just one player and keeping the other four and the coach?

That was one of the options, yes.

Let's talk about the goals first. I believe that the goal we set ourselves was about being a top 10 team by the end of the year. So I think the way the results came out hurt more than the goals we had set as we tried not to create too high of expectations. We didn't qualify for the Major, which definitely hurt as it was another one of our goals, and went through many qualifiers, but in the end, we got enough points that we didn't need to travel to those qualifiers anymore. So, in terms of these objectives, it was disappointing because I believe that what was externalized as the team's objectives did not match the real internal expectations. Obviously, we had a much higher standard than what people talked about.

But moving forward, there was a chance only one piece would change. We knew cadiaN wouldn't continue, so I advised him to find a new place that made more sense to him. I told him, 'I believe you are a true leader and a good one. You are a good player, but you need to find a different team. Find a place that makes more sense to you and that will listen to you.' You always have to deal with things head-on.

And with skullz, there was a world where he would continue, obviously, it wasn't even that difficult, but skullz also expressed that a Brazilian team would make more sense to him so we were already in talks with FURIA to see if it could make sense. When the team was built, it made a lot of sense, but moving forward, he wouldn't have the same impact or happiness there if he wasn’t fully bought in and bought into it. This I think matters a lot. In my view, it would take two changes, and not three, to really give us the boost we needed, after eight months of experience where you could see the areas we needed to improve and what we were lacking as a team.

I was just watching a video by Mauisnake, and he was rating the changes that teams had made over the past six months. One of his biggest criticisms regarding Liquid is that he felt you were behind when it comes to the meta. How do you think you did from a tactical standpoint? Did you feel as prepared during the final stages of your Liquid tenure as you had during the peak of your career, when you won the two Majors?

No, obviously not. When we won the two Majors we were at the top of the meta, we were the ones setting it, but at no point did I not feel like I couldn't do it. In my view, CS evolves in terms of tactics and the meta, of course, but the fundamental aspects about how to play as a team, how to communicate, how to make people play off each other, react… etc. Those things haven't changed that much and shouldn’t ever change at their core.

So I felt qualified to do that. But when I joined Liquid, I was asked to be more of a person to manage the team and the goals and not focus so much on the tactical part as the players there were more than capable of it. In the beginning, I really enjoyed getting to know the meta to see what was changing and helping in other areas in terms of preparing for matches. We got to a point where I was printing out like 130 sheets of paper for each game, so we were already over-prepared and even had too much, in my opinion.

It was more about filtering the right information, we didn't need more analysis, it was an area that was already well covered. Liquid's players liked to do this individual preparation work themselves, which is amazing as you will never be as prepared if someone else is doing your “homework” for you. So it didn't require me to do it for them, it was more about organizing ideas together and making sure we were on the same page, with the same vision of how we wanted to react to these plays and knowing which plays to expect. Or at least that’s what it should’ve been…

Looking back, do you have any regrets about your time at Liquid? Would you have done anything differently?

It's like people say in English, 'Hindsight is 20-20.' I would certainly do things differently, but at the time, I did them because they seemed right in terms of dealing with the situations that were happening. But I'd definitely do things differently. I'd be tougher on some players. Even though I didn't have the power, I'd take the liberty of saying, 'No, it shouldn't be this way.' Or, 'Yes, let's just trust this person and do it this way.' But I have no regrets. It was an experience that… Man, I'm passionate about CS, I'm passionate about the game. I love Liquid, I love our scene and the esports industry. So it was really cool to be a part of it all again.

I regret that it was short-lived and we didn't succeed, because I know that, at the end of the day, if my job was to manage this team and make this group of people functional, despite the problems we had, it was my responsibility to find a way to make these pieces work. I didn't manage to do it, so my regret is that I didn't succeed in the job, despite the factors we had against us.

What is your opinion about this new Liquid squad?

To tell you the truth, I don't know much about ultimate. jks is more experienced than skullz, but from everything I've heard, their personality profiles are similar. So he will be a more passive and quiet guy. It will depend a lot on how the team will fit together under Twistzz's leadership. I think they can have a good future, but if I were them, I would set more realistic expectations, as it will be a learning process and there will be difficulties at the start. But if they keep the pieces fit together and they work on the issues that will crop up, I think they can do well.

One of the biggest concerns is the impact that the leadership role will have on Twistzz's game. You said that most of the calls were being created by Twistzz and YEKINDAR during the final tournaments of the season, and Twistzz kept doing very well. Do you think that his game won't suffer?

As I said, one thing is adapting your playbook and setting how you like to play, before a match or during practice. Another thing is being responsible during the whole game for making those calls, making reads, keeping the team organized and following the calls, even when they're not the right move, keeping everyone aligned and working on mistakes. Because it's not just about games, right? Perhaps there will be an impact, I think that's the most natural thing.

Twistzz is one of the most mechanically gifted players I have seen. So I think he might be one of the rare cases of players who don't suffer as much because if he puts himself in positions where he's not always in the middle of the action, having to look at the radar, and he has to worry more about leading the team in late round situations, I think he won't suffer as much. But if he is placed in a situation where he has to do too much, where he has to read the game, make calls and frag, then it will be hard to keep up the numbers because… Any human being has to specialize in one area, right? You can't be a jack of all trades.

After it was announced that you were leaving Liquid, there was some speculation that you might be joining FURIA. Was that ever a possibility? Did you ever think about it?

I would be crazy if I said I never thought about it… they are a powerhouse in many ways, especially in Brazil and in what they mean to the region. And, in my opinion, they just got even better now with skullz.

But to your question, no… I don’t think it was ever a real possibility. They never started a conversation about it and truthfully I didn’t expect them to either. Even if they had, I'm not sure we would’ve come to an agreement as there is a lot of history there directly and indirectly since the MIBR / FURIA days…

Please don’t get me wrong, I know some of these guys very well and this is not meant to be made bigger than it is or to try and make a knock on them. I just believe they are an organization that has their way of doing things and that they have a strong belief in that way. I too have been around long enough to know what's what and have a strong conviction on my beliefs and ways of how things should be done.

Have you thought about what you're going to do? Are you open to doing something different in the industry?

I wasn’t involved in anything coaching or esports competitive for almost two and a half years after EG… A lot of people think I was coaching here in Brazil, but no… I was already doing something very different from what I was used to by being away from competition, which had been the main priority in my life for about as long as I can remember in recent memory.

I was doing my best to take some time to figure things out and put extra focus on getting my life and health in order - especially after the heart attack. I then had a glimpse back into how much I missed all of this with those two weeks helping out O PLANO. They were in a messed up situation and wanted help and in the end, they were the ones who helped me…

Then almost immediately I went to Fluxo, where we qualified for the Major and then I joined Liquid. Those were cool experiences where, even if not pretty - we achieved some goals, but towards the end, I remembered some of the hardships and letdowns that had made me want to leave in the first place. I sacrificed a lot of my health to do these years of coaching. My health isn't the same anymore but I put up with it because I want to. As I’ve always said, I love competing, I love esports and it’s the choice I choose to do willingly.

But… it’s not getting any easier to make that choice. Purely as a coach, if something comes up that makes sense, I will always consider it. But it’s hard as I don’t feel coaches nowadays have the power to do what needs to be done. It’s different when your trajectory has built up to that power and that’s what I believed I would have at Liquid.

It’s kind of like an ex-girlfriend you dated for three years… if you break up and get back together after a while, is it a new relationship or a continuation of the old one? I believed it would be the latter…

All of this to say that I would really love to continue in this industry as I genuinely do love it despite its flaws and hope to continue being an active part of contributing towards a better path.

What would I do if not coaching? I think I have two options that I could very much see making a lot of sense. I would love to officially go down the path of GM where I can really put a project together from beginning to end. You know, do things the way I believe they should be done, where you make moves that make sense and create a sustainable long-term project. That kind of vision is lacking, in my opinion, and I am one of the people who have the experience, relationships and skills for it as I have done similarly in the past.

Or, on the other hand, I would love to be involved in building this spectacle, which means being part of broadcasts as a member of talent. I think I could do really well in trying to share some of my experience and break down some of the more nuanced details that are sometimes overlooked in an entertaining way. Thankfully, I have always had very good friends in this industry. So, bringing some insight into them and a bit of this more realistic view of what it means to compete at a high level could be interesting. But again, it’s more about how to complement the show.

So in not so short form, my future is open and I am still analysing. I have to see everything that comes my way, I have some interesting offers on the table. But now is the time to slow things down and then make the right decision. I am 36 years old, I have a lot of experience, and I have gone through a lot of good and bad things. And it's time to put those things into practice somewhere that will keep me in the business and where things can be done in an objective and effective way to bring me a little peace too, right? I deserve to be happy too and all those who work In our business know how difficult it is to maintain this balance between health, personal life and work. I would love to find something that allows me to obsess over my work but also be able to see the people around me that I love more than three times a year.

Have you already had talks with TOs about doing this broadcast work?

I've had a few conversations with friends in the industry, with casters, analysts, and other people I thought it made sense to talk to. I've sent messages to some of the tournament organizers, but I haven't had much of a response yet. I know the tournament calendar is set, so if it happens, it'll happen when it needs to. But in the meantime, I'll keep doing my thing here and trying to contribute the best way I can.