Why we're still waiting for Counter-Strike's data revolution

You can collect advanced data from a Counter-Strike demo at every single tick. But that potential is still waiting to explode.

The advent of advanced statistics and empowered data departments has transformed traditional sports since the turn of the Millennium. Moneyball, the book (and movie) about how data and a bold GM took the middling Oakland Athletics into back-to-back playoffs, thrust this concept into the public sphere but change has only accelerated since.

In Basketball, the mid-2010s brought the '3 point era,' as teams eliminated most shots between the 3-point line and right next to the hoop.

Over the pond, long shots went on the decline in European Football as the advent of Expected Goals (xG) led teams to prioritize creating higher-quality chances over low-percentage snapshots.

Data-driven analysis has led to a huge decline in mid-range basketball shots. What could be CS' equivalent? Photo: Kirk Goldsberry

These two trends are easy to visualize but only scratch the surface. Backroom sports departments are unrecognizable now compared to twenty years ago. The age of scouts, of the prioritization of 'eye tests' and years of experience, is all but over. Their skills remain important, but where scouts go, who they watch, and what they watch for are all data-driven decisions.

In Counter-Strike, though, data departments are barely a dream — and might never even be needed. It is easy to imagine CS2 is on the same path as these traditional sports, just a few years away from its 'Moneyball' moment as teams race to hire data-savvy general managers to make every Rostermania count.

You could argue something similar to the 3-point-era and xG has already happened, when Astralis developed precision grenade stacks and kickstarted the saving era as more and more teams shied away from retakes. But that was not the beginning of a grand data revolution.

Scouting now is still done in much the same way it was in 2016. The coach, in-game leader, and a representative from the organization sit down and sieve through a longlist via trust in their eye test by watching demos and picking up references from a player's former teammates.

kassad believes there are "dozen of more important factors" than stats in recruitment

"Stats aren’t that important when choosing new players," kassad tells us. "There are dozens of more important factors when making a team. First of all, I like to get feedback from people that worked in the past with players I’m interested in signing. After that comes demo reviews mainly focused on seeing how the player handles high-pressure situations, how he reacts to certain situations happening mid-rounds, does he have the amount of initiative needed for his position, decision making, and so on."

In some organizations, it's the players in kassad's role. In a world where eye test is king, the players are the overmighty barons. It is an art, not a science.

It is easy to draw comparisons between this status quo and the antagonistic old-school scouts pictured in Moneyball. When it is a personal decision, personal relationships factor in the decision. You don't need to trust the word of a former coach if you've worked with the player yourself before. It's easy then, for kassad to sign Joakim "⁠jkaem⁠" Myrbostad and Nemanja "⁠nexa⁠" Isaković because they are known quantities.

It's the same for agencies. It is not a coincidence that all five Vitality players were signed to Jérôme Coupez's Prodigy Agency when they arrived.

Jesper "⁠JW⁠" Wecksell has talked about how talking to former players has meant EYEBALLERS have missed out on a "whole generation" of Swedish talent. "We've missed some incredibly good signings because we may have listened to rumors more than giving the people in question an honest chance ourselves," he told Dust2.se.

But this is a system that, broadly, works. The best talents still make it to the best teams. Spirit did not find Danil "⁠donk⁠" Kryshkovets with some super-advanced algorithm; they did so with an empowered old-school scouting system.

It was not an algorithm, but scouting, that found donk

Trying to follow traditional sports can be a trap itself, an anachronistic application of principles that seem good but simply don't fit an esport like Counter-Strike.

For some, positions and roles fit this example, as the community increase their focus and scrutiny when transfers turn a player's game upside down. Previously, eyelids may not have been batted but now Mario "⁠malbsMd⁠" Samayoa's signing to G2 — a clear prodigy with a 1.30 rating for 2024 in M80 — was questioned on this basis.

"I hate this trend of the last few years, where everyone is so fixated on roles," said Richard "⁠Richard Lewis⁠" Lewis on stream talking about the new G2 roster. "People talk about roles as if they are immutable qualities that are totally inflexible. I'm from a time where roles were almost a secondary concern: We get players who vibe well, we've got a good tactical system, and we will adapt."

Yet, the reality is that this community trend is following the scene. Roles and positions discourse is simply catching up to what was already a problem.

Peter "⁠dupreeh⁠" Rasmussen spoke frequently about his unhappiness with being moved to lurking positions in 2016 to free up Markus "⁠Kjaerbye⁠" Kjærbye. When he was back in the map control pack after Emil "⁠Magisk⁠" Reif's arrival — a happy accident, given the ultra-aggressive Kristian "⁠k0nfig⁠" Wienecke was their primary target — Astralis kickstarted their era.

Astralis opting for Magisk resolved a role clash that had troubled the team since Kjaerbye's signing in 2016 — and kickstarted an era

Janusz "⁠Snax⁠" Pogorzelski joined MOUZ in 2018 and, despite winning ESL One New York, wilted away in Martin "⁠STYKO⁠" Styk's challenging supportive role and was removed. SK signed the super-aggressive João "⁠felps⁠" Vasconcellos (a Fernando "⁠fer⁠" Alvarenga clone, really) as Lincoln "⁠fnx⁠" Lau's replacement, but looked far better after adding Ricardo "⁠boltz⁠" Prass.

More recently, Astralis did not even qualify for the Major after trying to fit Benjamin "⁠blameF⁠" Bremer, Martin "⁠stavn⁠" Lund, and Jakob "⁠jabbi⁠" Nygaard into the same team.

Players often believe they are more flexible than they are. 'We can play any role,' they say, with faith that a modern system can distribute fragging opportunities more evenly. Even as malbsMd's old teammates question his G2 role change, the man himself has full faith that he can adapt.

Read more
Swisher: "malbsMd doesn't deserve those roles [in G2], he should be in ones he shines in"

Mostly, the move has paid off, even if he has gone from a 1.30-rating matchwinner to an X-factor, with a clear reduction in the number of duels his new roles allow him to take. He is still winning fights, fair and unfair, but he is seeing fewer of them.

But other teams are taking a different road, with GamerLegion being a shining example with Ashley "⁠ash⁠" Battye at the helm of prioritizing data and positions in his scouting.

"I'm a big Liverpool fan," ash tells HLTV, "and this is the approach that they've had for the last few years: Finding people via statistics, maybe undervalued, and going for those guys."

The basic approach is still rudimentary, and what you would expect: ash and assistant Adrian "⁠imd⁠" Pieper put together a longlist, go through as many statistics as they can, and then use those stats to narrow the list down to a manageable number of players to look at demos for.

ash is trying to Moneyball GamerLegion back to the top

The difference is in what stats they are using.

"Skybox has been a godsend for us," ash told us. "What we found was that the statistics are broken down into roles. For example, you can pick five teams and it separates people's ratings on buy rounds, eco rounds, against ecos, and it finds the rating they 'should' be [based on their positions]."

It's similar to HLTV's own 'target rating', which gives players a ballpark average rating you would expect based on their positions. For example, a player with donk's CT positions would average a 1.10 rating, and someone in William "⁠mezii⁠" Merriman's would have 1.02. A player in tough CT roles with a 1.10 rating, therefore, deserves attention in a way a star rifler might not.

Read more
Target Rating: Identifying over and under performers on CT side

Skybox then lets ash and imd go even further, by looking at rounds between teams on full buys.

"Stats on HLTV, they might say 1.15 and then you look into it on Skybox and you can check ecos and he has a 2.16 rating against ecos for the year or something, and it's inflating their rounds like crazy. But some players with that same 1.15 rating might only have a 0.97 vs ecos over the year.

"We ended up finding FL4MUS, his ratings and [opening] attempts were insanely low versus ecos, but on buy rounds his attempts were very high and his rating was 0.2 above the average in every position he played, compared to all these top teams."

Compare that to fnatic's blameF, who has 36% opening attempts in anti-eco rounds and just 18% in full-vs-full since July 23.

This was early this year, back when GamerLegion thought they had missed out on the Copenhagen Major (and before Nemiga and Timur "⁠FL4MUS⁠" Marev were on the radar) as they searched for a replacement for Nicolas "⁠Keoz⁠" Dgus.

"I literally had no idea who FL4MUS was," ash continued. "He just stood out. From there, he went to the shortlist, and we watched him afterward, and that's why I saw him pass the eye test unbelievably as well. So the statistics make the shortlist, and then from there I go through and break down if the numbers are that good, is it sustainable the way he's playing, can he fit in a system, and go from there."

Skybox data informed GamerLegion's signing of FL4MUS

This use of Skybox, ash admits, isn't even what the advanced Anders "⁠Anders⁠" Blume-backed service is designed for. Scouting is a natural extension of their main goal: Automating laborious analyst work.

"Our overall ambition is to make the research you do on opponents way faster," Skybox CMO Jacob Dietz says.

The company has a host of tools for just that: A 2D replayer you can layer rounds over, a veto simulator, leaderboards for each position, and the aforementioned economy filters on team and player stats.

But these measures aren't designed for recruitment purposes, not really. The 'Playbook' page, pictured below, is more the type of data work Skybox wants to be their niche: They have analyzed every team's rounds to show trends (how often they rush, use set strategies, or default) and specific versions of their rounds.

The 'Playbook' page on Skybox shows teams' trends in mid-rounds. Photo: EDGE

Astralis use a B execute with a CT smoke in 24% of their rounds, 10% more than the average team. Something like this is something an analyst would notice in their extensive demo review, but a tool like Skybox points them in the right direction.

"We want to save teams a lot of time," Dietz continues. "We want to do the analysis they do very manually. We want to be able to do that at the click of a button."

You can even see your team's hold success on a bomb-site, retake success, and post-plant success, more hints into where a team is strong, and more importantly, where they are not.

Skybox is a fantastic tool, there is no doubt. But it is still in development; clients are dependent on their dev team for new features. You can give feedback, but it can still be hard to get bespoke statistics.

For that, you need data analysts — who cost a lot of money. The average US data analyst can earn $79,113 a year, according to Indeed. It's next to impossible to justify that cost if you're an ordinary esports team.

Liquid analyst Jay "⁠DeMars DeRover⁠" Li is a rare example of a data-first Counter-Strike analyst.

"I didn't play the game at all," he tells HLTV. "Liquid was very patient with that."

Modest and shy, he's not even sure he'd hire himself. "To be honest I don't think it's that efficient to hire [a data person]. These skills do not overlap. Building good software, good math, understanding statistics and probability theory or whatever, and the skills of knowing what a default is and the current meta — they don't overlap at all."

Liquid data analyst DeMarsDeRover has faith in research papers and public-facing companies to lead CS' data revolution. Photo: DeMarsDeRover

Traditional analysts, for DeMars DeRover, have an easier time using public tools like Skybox or Leetify to gain data insights than he did learning the game from scratch. This does not mean he thinks data is useless in CS, far from it. It is just that, from the perspective of the budding data analyst, a team is not the home he would recommend.

In sports, teams and consultancy companies hired by teams drive the data revolution. In Counter-Strike, it's external, public-facing companies like Skybox and Leetify and hobbyist research professors like Peter Xenopoulos, whose research led to teams force-buying after losing the pistol round more aggressively, at the wheel.

The key reason for this is the quality, and availability, of Counter-Strike data. "This data is free, very cheap to get, very easy to work with, and a lot of the parsing algorithms are written already," Li explains.

"I don't think any sport, professional or whatever, has as good data as Counter-Strike. I would stand by that for sure. Frequency, accuracy, freeness, how quick it is to download, how readily available it is after each match."

Data guru DeMarsDeRover was not too involved in Liquid's rebuild, with Twistzz taking charge of ultimate's signing

What shines through our conversation is the respect Li has for traditional analysts, a role he has basically taken up. "At this point I'm basically just an analyst who made some tools and made his job easier." There is no Moneyball data department at Liquid. Roland "⁠ultimate⁠" Tomkowiak seemed like one, but since then it has become clear it was a traditional scouting job by Russel "⁠Twistzz⁠" Van Dulken to uncover him.

"I'd say [scouting and transfers] is a small part of my role," Li says. "[Analysts] are not as experienced as the players when it came to the eye test, and don't have as much say as coaches when it comes to roster moves.

"The stats can help us look at a wider range of players. Maybe we don't have time to watch every tier two demo but we can analyze it, and get us a shortlist.

"Roster moves are so precious, you only have five of them, and so much is invested into them, that it's really hard to justify with just numbers. The people with the biggest input are the key decision makers on the team not the math numbers folks in the back."

So we are back where we started. Data is involved, in so far as helping to filter a longlist, but it cannot be relied upon compared to the eye test of a professional player.

But this is not the universal view.

Boston Major winning coach valens has led data departments at Cloud9 and is now at Evil Geniuses

"You have to look at [a data department] as a multi-year investment. The ultimate reason why you want to build a team that can do this stuff in-house is where you're going to set yourself apart as an organization isn't going to be the access to the data. It's going to be what you do with the data."

That's Soham "⁠valens⁠" Chowdhury, major-winning coach with Cloud9 and now Head of Gaming & Data Science at Evil Geniuses.

The organization does not enjoy the best reputation in Counter-Strike, it's fair to say. valens' data-driven insights were not enough to make the 'Blueprint' project a success, as various North American rosters tripped up on themselves before the organization left the game in January 2024.

But there is no doubt valens' work is groundbreaking, far beyond what any other team is doing. Just because it did not translate into trophies, or turn Paytyn "⁠junior⁠" Johnson into Oleksandr "⁠s1mple⁠" Kostyliev, does not make it any less interesting.

Evil Geniuses previously hired data analysts in each game, including occasional HLTV feature writer Juan "Hepa" Borges. Now, it is more stripped down, with a team consisting of valens, an annual intern, and much of the "hands-on keyboard" work being done by technology partner HP enterprises.

As far back as 2019, valens — who has a Master's degree from Stanford — was using in-game data in combination with communication files to analyze which players were over-calling or under-calling based on information demos proved they had available.

EG were using data to analyze their communication as far back as 2019

In-house, the team has their own rating, named 'EGR,' because, obviously, that factors in communication, utility quantity, utility quality, mechanical skill, and how well you perform in what valens calls "moments that really dictate the outcome of a game."

Communication, if you ask anyone else, is an intangible. But EG, when they trial players, use their comms as a tangible skill to analyse and turn into quantitative data. The theoretical recruitment benefits are obvious.

They also emphasise specific types of situations. Rather than an overall kill count, what is important is a combination of how many 'fair duels' a player wins and how often a player can make a duel 'unfair' in their favor.

They are now using Machine Learning, specifically 'LSTM,' to evaluate player performance in a sequential manner. It is, valens admits, a bit of a "black box," but it is a crucial part of EGR.

But data, even for valens, is not a silver bullet. A cursory glance at EG's results can tell you the same thing. It is an enhancer, something to increase efficiency, to save coaches time or an organization money in the off-season. It is not a miracle worker.

"The majority of CS, you need to have a feel for the game. If you lose touch with what's in front of you, if you started as a player thinking, 'they're going to hit B because they usually hit B in 3v3s,' that shouldn't impact your rotation over your teammates' comms about where the opponents are."

There are objective data insights — 'this team is weaker on B than A against pistols.' But that does not mean it is objectively correct for an in-game leader to always hit B on those rounds.

It's also hard to be universal. Should there be a line where you always save? Take a 2v3 on Inferno's A site, a situation where many teams would save without question. It's a low probability retake, however you cook it. But what if data shows your opponent is particularly bad at post-plants there?

You also want to stay unpredictable. Doing the same thing, again and again, is rarely optimal in a game with as complex a decision tree as CS even if the numbers, on paper, say it is.

valens' data work on EG's CS team did not translate into immediate results on the server

Anti-strat work from traditional analysts, hoovering up VODs or using tools like Skybox, has already made it a game of cat and mouse. You might identify a clear trend in data or a demo, but turn up to the best of three and your opponent has completely changed everything.

This is true in sports too, of course. Misuse of data, and blind faith in a flawed model, is a trap in itself.

Liverpool's return to the height of English football came from the marriage of data guru Ian Graham, former video analyst and eye-test specialist Michael Edwards, and a generational coach in the form of Jurgen Klopp. All three parties had to buy in, and cover each other's weaknesses.

Edwards and Graham, the equivalent of a GM and Data Scientist duo, were most fractious. Early on in their partnership, Edwards would rubbish every part of Graham's models; point out every flaw, every gap in its vision. Only once the model satisfied Edwards did it become part of decision-making.

The potential for data in Counter-Strike is limitless. 64 times a second, information is collected that can lead to insights. Everybody has free access to data libraries traditional sport teams fight tooth and nail for.

Rory Smith's book, Expected Goals, opens with the story of Ashley Flores, a Philipino 'data operator.' His job is to watch football matches, and hit a shortcut on his keyboard every time something happens. CS has no need for such infrastructure. It is built into the game.

But nobody has managed to turn that into trophies. No team is our equivalent of Oakland A's, or Liverpool. Who knows what Counter-Strike's data revolution might look like?

What seems clear is that teams would benefit from an increased focus on positions and specialists, data-driven self-scouting for unpredictability, and a more rigorous scouting process that puts analytics — fair duels, economy-adjusted performance, and detailed utility and communication analysis — at the forefront.

It would take a bold organization chief to invest in the midst of esports winter with 2025 just around the corner. Financial outlay on data, at this moment in time, is a risk, in a field that tends towards short-termism at the best of times.

Innovation, however, always carries risk. A plunge into data, long-term, is one that will increase the hit-rate on transfers (and thus save money on buyouts), improve performance, and give early adopters a discernible edge. We know gold is under the mountain. We just don't know who will find it.

Russia Timur 'FL4MUS' Marev
Timur 'FL4MUS' Marev
Age:
20
Team:
Rating 1.0:
0.98
Maps played:
316
KPR:
0.69
DPR:
0.71
Poland Roland 'ultimate' Tomkowiak
Roland 'ultimate' Tomkowiak
Age:
20
Team:
Rating 1.0:
1.05
Maps played:
299
KPR:
0.71
DPR:
0.65
Brazil João 'felps' Vasconcellos
João 'felps' Vasconcellos
Age:
27
Team:
Rating 1.0:
1.07
Maps played:
1499
KPR:
0.75
DPR:
0.70
United States Soham 'valens' Chowdhury
Soham 'valens' Chowdhury
Age:
35
Team:
No team
Rating 1.0:
0.74
Maps played:
251
KPR:
0.50
DPR:
0.72
Poland Adrian 'imd' Pieper
Adrian 'imd' Pieper
Age:
28
Team:
No team
Rating 1.0:
0.70
Maps played:
57
KPR:
0.44
DPR:
0.69
Denmark Emil 'Magisk' Reif
Emil 'Magisk' Reif
Age:
26
Team:
Rating 1.0:
1.07
Maps played:
1740
KPR:
0.71
DPR:
0.63
United Kingdom Richard 'Richard Lewis' Lewis
Richard 'Richard Lewis' Lewis
Age:
42
Team:
No team
Rating 1.0:
-
Maps played:
0
KPR:
-
DPR:
-
Sweden Jesper 'JW' Wecksell
Jesper 'JW' Wecksell
Age:
29
Team:
Rating 1.0:
1.04
Maps played:
2637
KPR:
0.72
DPR:
0.68
Denmark Markus 'Kjaerbye' Kjærbye
Markus 'Kjaerbye' Kjærbye
Age:
26
Team:
Rating 1.0:
1.04
Maps played:
1562
KPR:
0.71
DPR:
0.66
Belgium Nicolas 'Keoz' Dgus
Nicolas 'Keoz' Dgus
Age:
23
Rating 1.0:
0.95
Maps played:
1199
KPR:
0.66
DPR:
0.70
Denmark Anders 'Anders' Blume
Anders 'Anders' Blume
Age:
38
Team:
No team
Rating 1.0:
0.53
Maps played:
1
KPR:
0.19
DPR:
0.58
Serbia Nemanja 'nexa' Isaković
Nemanja 'nexa' Isaković
Age:
27
Team:
No team
Rating 1.0:
1.03
Maps played:
1600
KPR:
0.68
DPR:
0.64
Canada Russel 'Twistzz' Van Dulken
Russel 'Twistzz' Van Dulken
Age:
24
Team:
Rating 1.0:
1.10
Maps played:
1782
KPR:
0.73
DPR:
0.62
Serbia Aleksandar 'kassad' Trifunović
Aleksandar 'kassad' Trifunović
Age:
37
Team:
No team
Rating 1.0:
0.75
Maps played:
102
KPR:
0.52
DPR:
0.73
United States Paytyn 'junior' Johnson
Paytyn 'junior' Johnson
Age:
23
Team:
Rating 1.0:
1.12
Maps played:
905
KPR:
0.73
DPR:
0.58
United Kingdom William 'mezii' Merriman
William 'mezii' Merriman
Age:
26
Team:
Rating 1.0:
1.05
Maps played:
858
KPR:
0.70
DPR:
0.63
Guatemala Mario 'malbsMd' Samayoa
Mario 'malbsMd' Samayoa
Age:
22
Team:
Rating 1.0:
1.08
Maps played:
969
KPR:
0.76
DPR:
0.70
Denmark Jakob 'jabbi' Nygaard
Jakob 'jabbi' Nygaard
Age:
21
Team:
Rating 1.0:
1.00
Maps played:
1093
KPR:
0.67
DPR:
0.66
Denmark Peter 'dupreeh' Rasmussen
Peter 'dupreeh' Rasmussen
Age:
31
Team:
Rating 1.0:
1.07
Maps played:
2297
KPR:
0.72
DPR:
0.65
Brazil Lincoln 'fnx' Lau
Lincoln 'fnx' Lau
Age:
34
Team:
No team
Rating 1.0:
1.02
Maps played:
689
KPR:
0.69
DPR:
0.66
Russia Danil 'donk' Kryshkovets
Danil 'donk' Kryshkovets
Age:
17
Team:
Rating 1.0:
1.22
Maps played:
478
KPR:
0.84
DPR:
0.67
Denmark Martin 'stavn' Lund
Martin 'stavn' Lund
Age:
22
Team:
Rating 1.0:
1.05
Maps played:
1431
KPR:
0.73
DPR:
0.67
United States Jay 'DeMars DeRover' Li
Jay 'DeMars DeRover' Li
Age:
-
Team:
No team
Rating 1.0:
-
Maps played:
0
KPR:
-
DPR:
-
Brazil Fernando 'fer' Alvarenga
Fernando 'fer' Alvarenga
Age:
32
Team:
No team
Rating 1.0:
1.08
Maps played:
1467
KPR:
0.75
DPR:
0.68
Denmark Kristian 'k0nfig' Wienecke
Kristian 'k0nfig' Wienecke
Age:
27
Rating 1.0:
1.07
Maps played:
1773
KPR:
0.74
DPR:
0.69
Brazil Ricardo 'boltz' Prass
Ricardo 'boltz' Prass
Age:
27
Team:
No team
Rating 1.0:
1.06
Maps played:
1448
KPR:
0.71
DPR:
0.63
Slovakia Martin 'STYKO' Styk
Martin 'STYKO' Styk
Age:
28
Team:
No team
Rating 1.0:
0.98
Maps played:
2019
KPR:
0.66
DPR:
0.66
Norway Joakim 'jkaem' Myrbostad
Joakim 'jkaem' Myrbostad
Age:
30
Team:
Rating 1.0:
1.04
Maps played:
1904
KPR:
0.73
DPR:
0.70
Poland Janusz 'Snax' Pogorzelski
Janusz 'Snax' Pogorzelski
Age:
31
Team:
Rating 1.0:
1.02
Maps played:
2558
KPR:
0.69
DPR:
0.66
Denmark Benjamin 'blameF' Bremer
Benjamin 'blameF' Bremer
Age:
27
Team:
Rating 1.0:
1.15
Maps played:
1264
KPR:
0.76
DPR:
0.60
Ukraine Oleksandr 's1mple' Kostyliev
Oleksandr 's1mple' Kostyliev
Age:
27
Team:
Rating 1.0:
1.24
Maps played:
1733
KPR:
0.85
DPR:
0.64
#1
Faceit level 7  | 
Bonfire | 
San Marino twovetti
nice read
2024-10-28 20:26
127
5 replies
Read whole article one minute after published kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk
2024-10-28 20:51
93
4 replies
#21
Faceit level 7  | 
Bonfire | 
San Marino twovetti
your point?
2024-10-28 20:52
3
3 replies
#44
 | 
Europe Squirel
that u are just trying to get the first comment and didn't read it at that time
2024-10-28 21:50
43
2 replies
#59
 | 
Netherlands geek3D
D:
2024-10-28 22:48
1
#88
Faceit level 7  | 
Bonfire | 
San Marino twovetti
what can I say I'm a fast reader
2024-10-29 12:15
0
#3
Faceit level 7  | 
 | 
Sweden quacke
I think this was a topic when NER0 was a guest on Retake the Week
2024-10-28 20:28
7
1 reply
#35
 | 
Sweden Aebexz
Yeah, it was if I’m not mistaken
2024-10-28 21:22
0
#4
Faceit premium user  | 
 | 
Sweden Mr_Vista
tldr?
2024-10-28 20:29
2
9 replies
Different points of view were discussed regarding the use of data when hiring players. Some think it is very important, others think eye test is much more reliable. The roles thing were also discussed a little, concluding that they are indeed important and that players tend to overestimate their flexibility to switch roles. In general, it was concluded that the data could be very useful for the teams and it was suggested that the revolution caused by them in CS is yet to come
2024-10-28 21:39
26
6 replies
tldr?
2024-10-28 21:47
3
5 replies
#45
 | 
Europe Squirel
data is much data not too useful yet in future maybe better utilisation
2024-10-28 21:51
38
2 replies
Thanks
2024-10-28 22:28
2
my man
2024-10-29 13:11
1
5 lines x 500 lines...
2024-10-28 21:54
0
1 reply
Complain much Rain dampens your spirit Maybe it should help you grow instead like a garden RegarxDs.
2024-10-28 22:28
3
it takes 3 minutes to read
2024-10-29 01:13
0
#86
 | 
Seychelles zazikii
data good but not good enough yet
2024-10-29 11:18
0
#6
Faceit level 3  | 
STYKO | 
Spain aDr1mAt3s
Another nero masterclass
2024-10-28 20:30
39
#7
Faceit level 8  | 
 | 
Ireland Anklejoints
NERO back with another banger article
2024-10-28 20:31
28
Another banger read by my goat ner0!
2024-10-28 20:37
12
#9
 | 
United States 1Tuurtle
I feel like this article has been in the works for a long time
2024-10-28 20:43
7
4 replies
#16
Faceit level 10  | 
 | 
United Kingdom NER0cs - HLTV.org
I did the first interview in July sooooo… yes :D
2024-10-28 20:49
43
3 replies
#23
 | 
United States 1Tuurtle
Tbh I would’ve thought earlier considering the caption under valen implies he still works at eg which I don’t think (?) is true
2024-10-28 20:55
1
2 replies
he is head of gaming
2024-10-28 21:36
1
1 reply
#40
 | 
United States 1Tuurtle
Is he really? Thought they fired everyone and then some ransoms took over the valo team until that is dropped in 2025
2024-10-28 21:37
0
People dont even read and said “banger read”.
2024-10-28 20:44
8
Savage1337 prospect data when
2024-10-28 20:45
14
1 reply
#78
Faceit level 4  | 
 | 
Israel mcnamaras_EEEdiots
110% success in opening duels 0% opening attempt vs ecos 343% winrate vs eco in gunfight
2024-10-29 04:31
0
"Boston Major winning coach valens has led data departments at Cloud9 and is now at Evil Geniuses" says a lot about that run axaxaxaa anyway banger article
2024-10-28 20:46
4
#14
 | 
Finland Misttaa
The issue is with data, and the reason I usually don't share insights is because the average person doesn't care to acknowledge what they are reading. Of course data will revolutionise the way cs teams operate BUT to the average person they will not understand the process of finding the perfect player. For example I believe endpoint should sign ryu instead of cejot as all data leads to him being a great improvement in the same / similar roles. But I don't think anyone would really care to read why or how.
2024-10-28 20:46
1
1 reply
2024-10-28 20:57
0
#15
 | 
Latvia riraie
interesting
2024-10-28 20:47
2
I readed.
2024-10-28 20:51
0
data doesn't tell what kind of motivation the player has or what kind of personality person has. We saw what with BOROS. He was benched from 2 teams because he was always late from pracs etc.
2024-10-28 20:55
0
3 replies
#27
 | 
Finland Misttaa
When finding players to fit certain roles / stats multiple results will show up. It's a teams job to recruit and find who fits the right vision. Still don't know why he was signed to ITB after the whole falcons thing. Probably smooyas friend. Nothing to do with data.
2024-10-28 20:58
3
1 reply
People who are in tryout phase might "act" or say anything just to be signed, but most of the time orgs themselves ask around what kind of a personality/work ethic the player has.
2024-10-28 21:02
1
thankfully you can tell that in about one faceit session with the person
2024-10-28 21:59
1
I ain't doing anything with the data until the game exists because of casinos
2024-10-28 20:57
0
Absolute banger read ner0!
2024-10-28 21:00
4
A simple FP Shooter game I used to enjoy is now turning into an Astrophysics/Quantum Mechanics/FBI complexity one.
2024-10-28 21:01
2
2 replies
#64
 | 
France Nanynoodle
Its called business intelligence but its mainly biased so keep aiming at heads and press mouse1 then enjoy
2024-10-28 23:33
4
1 reply
When you look at the details pros work with these days Frozen during liquid Mirage epic comeback match Twistzz with the inferno B site glove colour identification The game has evolved so much that the BUSINESS INTELLIGENCE is a smaller term to describe the scene rn 😂 As for us it is just mouse 1 enjoy.....
2024-10-29 02:34
0
Sadly, EG destroyed any reputation a more data-driven approach could have.
2024-10-28 21:02
0
As a CS enthusiast and future data engineer, the potential for a data revolution in CS is so exciting! Nice read!
2024-10-28 21:26
2
#39
Old school: User been here for more than 10 years  | 
Croatia kalimero!
Interesting take. My master's degree thesis heavily emphasized data analysing and collection, and personally I've never considered analysing Counter Strike player/team performances primarily due to inability to express anything serious on this forum so I rather volunteer as a data analyst at my local football club, however, I might give a chance or two at analysing something within CS. Great read, appreciate it, changed my view on some opinions I've held for a long time.
2024-10-28 21:36
5
2 replies
#47
 | 
Europe Squirel
do it, there are some people, who would appreciate it. And maybe u can turn it into a career
2024-10-28 21:54
1
1 reply
#96
Old school: User been here for more than 10 years  | 
Croatia kalimero!
Thanks man, appreciate it very much, will do some basic stuff and work for the prolonged weekend I've got, maybe I'll get some great ideas.
2024-10-29 17:04
2
#42
Faceit premium user Faceit level 9  | 
Puppy | 
Europe clegur
wouldn't be a nero piece without a Liverpool reference
2024-10-28 21:41
4
#52
Faceit level 10 Old school: User been here for more than 10 years  | 
 | 
Sweden Hasklon
incredible article as always
2024-10-28 22:03
0
#55
donk | 
Canada Pumby
I have been interested in doing a machine learning project on CS for a while.. maybe it is time
2024-10-28 22:12
1
The reason is pretty straightforward: anyone who can do data science knows that esports doesn't have the money and stability of real sports long term Hell, esports doesn't even have the revenue to justify player salaries and prize pools, let alone auxiliary things like analytics departments
2024-10-28 22:36
7
2 replies
Exactly. His estimate for statistician salary is also far too low. It probably includes some excel monkeys working for a local insurance broker in Tulsa or something. A real MA or PhD statistician from a top school would be several hundred thousand a year in the US. They could easily go work for a top tech company.
2024-10-28 23:37
3
1 reply
#72
Faceit level 10  | 
 | 
United Kingdom NER0cs - HLTV.org
Yeah I expected it to be higher when I googled but that was all I found
2024-10-29 01:30
2
Possible project idea as a Stats and CompSci major :>
2024-10-28 22:53
1
Ner0 with another banger. Thank you!
2024-10-28 23:03
1
#62
 | 
Argentina WaSTe_D
An engaging read from beginning to end. Bravo.
2024-10-28 23:08
2
Amazing article @NER0cs - and something I’ve been saying for a while. A real stats department at a major team could easily find overlooked tier 1 talent stuck in tier 2 or 3 CS. The money is a factor though. That Indeed estimate for salary is laughably low. A good statistician would cost several hundred thousand a year (they could easily go to a tech company for that + equity). You’d have to build one in a country with much cheaper labor.
2024-10-28 23:31
1
#66
 | 
Sweden ELDREGN
I have always said that I hate AI, but I still want it for CS, mostly to detect cheats, but this was also a really nice point.
2024-10-28 23:44
0
Unlike in traditional sports, where the rules and environment stays mostly the same, the data collected from cs can suddently lose its meaning if/when Valve decides to change the game around.
2024-10-28 23:44
0
One of the very easiest things to do that HLTV could implement right now (@NER0cs @Striker@JNUPS) is adjusting HLTV rating by opponent strength. I literally did it in excel myself (super manually since HLTV doesn’t make their raw data external). Did malbs stats decrease because of “roles” or because he is now playing tier 1 teams vs farming NA bots? If you could adjust by strength of schedule you could easily figure that out!! I know they do a crude approximation using the “vs. top 5, vs. top 10”, etc thing - but that’s very imprecise
2024-10-28 23:48
2
#69
 | 
Brazil choquo
Honestly, NER0 and MIRAA are the two blokes that most make HLTV the pinnacle of Counter-Strike journalism, maybe even of esports journalist period. Another absolute masterpiece by NER0; I'm just so glad for our community that this guy exists!! Anyway, about this article in particular: I think upfront costs are what's most prohibitive to this data revolution in CS, indeed. I think that if players and coaches get more familiar with the idea of data-driven decisions in CS, this will be fundamental for organizations to be more considerate to hiring data analysts, as expensive as they are. From the position they currently sit, they are the most probable professionals in this field to be the catalysts to this revolution–they 'just' need to listen to data analysis more thoughtfuly.
2024-10-28 23:57
1
#70
Faceit level 10  | 
 | 
United Kingdom Thomas_Shelby_OBE
Exceptional article as usual for NER0
2024-10-29 00:20
3
#73
Old school: User been here for more than 10 years  | 
m0NESY | 
Poland Mardex
insane article
2024-10-29 01:43
0
#77
Faceit level 4  | 
 | 
Israel mcnamaras_EEEdiots
the cs equivalent? in 2027 we'll see corner spamming pros using the r8 revolver, the greatest gun in the world.
2024-10-29 04:24
0
Hire me! Trust me, I know!
2024-10-29 04:55
0
ash is a Liverpool fan? Maybe i should consider supporting GL after all
2024-10-29 05:14
1
NER0 hltv GOAT
2024-10-29 08:01
0
This ia like a researxh paper man wtf
2024-10-29 08:35
0
Good article, interesting stuff
2024-10-29 08:38
0
#85
Old school: User been here for more than 10 years  | 
 | 
England Mattthematt
Traditional sports have more dispersed grassroots or junior leagues. They need data to find hidden gems in obscure leagues. CS the route to the top is straightforward - grind through FPL. Current pros play in FPL so they can assess potential talent without data.
2024-10-29 09:05
0
cheers
2024-10-29 12:39
0
#91
Faceit level 10  | 
Brollan | 
Sweden EntonXD
I thought this ash guy was styko after a divorce
2024-10-29 13:27
0
#92
 | 
United Kingdom Leftie
As a programmer that is just asking for me to write some software, but effort & stuff, mostly itd never get used hah
2024-10-29 14:27
0
Great read. NA needs academy teams. SA needs academy teams. This'll help launch the world we have and make it greater. We're only scratching the surface of what the full potential can be.
2024-10-29 14:59
2
6 replies
Agreed, the game is going to have to expand as a whole. If every Top50 org had academy teams, and if there'd be more financial backing in the CS scene, it could lead to a data revolution as described in the article. I just think that as of now, the pro scene just isn't big enough for statistics to play a major role in transfers and top players seemingly coming out of nowhere.
2024-10-29 17:11
2
5 replies
The money is there. I don't think that's the issue. If you look at pro sports in general (doesn't matter US or EU) ... there's only a handful of teams at the premier level ... but with ad's and sponsorships and ticket sales and revenue in general, you can afford to pay players what they're worth. If you want to succeed in CS, you'll have to analyze and break down stats in order to succeed because finding new ways to succeed is getting more and more difficult. It's more than just point and click ... it's more than just a smoke wall on Nuke ... it's more than just rush and hold the site ... Tier 1 CS is evolving faster than ever because we have things like SkyBox and Leetify ... as an Org, if you don't keep up, you'll fail. Bottom Line. It's nice that we have Top30 teams and then Tier 2 ... but being able to financially hold onto 100+ teams worldwide is difficult ... which also means we can have Major prize pools being 1.25M whilst having Blast World finals being 1M ... Majors have to increase. But I can stay on the $$$ topic all day. The point is, stats will be the future but "eye tests" will never go away!!!
2024-10-29 18:23
1
4 replies
I definitely agree with you, stats are going to be more important as time goes on. Im just intrigued to see when and how it will happen. Right now we always focus on the same old stats that have been available for years if not decades (K/D, Rating 2.1, KAST, etc.) and it all seems a bit stagnant from that perspective. Even though he brought up some interesting points in the article, most of this stuff seems to be generally ignored by the counter strike world. Im not sure if there is a possibility for a stat revolution, just looking at how the game is played at the moment. On the talent scouting perspective: Im not the biggest esports guy, however League of Legends for example seems different. They have their franchised leagues (not a fan of this concept but whatever) and they are all mandated to have an academy roster and field it in an academy league. Its just a very efficient way to get access to loads of talented players, analyze them and also give them an outlook for a future in professional gaming. Whether its a good idea or not, i think academy rosters are extremely important, and they should be run by big orgs.
2024-10-29 18:35
1
3 replies
I was fortunate enough to attend the Esports Summit held in Atlanta a month ago and on a panel, they made a valid and good point ... academy teams need to created because if you only play Faceit or you competed on the collegiate level, it does not compare to the work ethic and time input and matches played that the pro scene provides. You prepare young players to be ready to make the move up. The system we have now isn't perfect and it basically finds players who are "good" at the FPL level and hope they work out on the pro scene. It's similar to signed a High School baseball player to a minor league deal and hoping he works out and doesn't blow his arm out before making it to the big leagues. You have to groom and train players to be able to compete. Academy teams help eliminate some of the "eye tests" but once you find the diamond in the rough, it helps to mold them into what you "need" them to be in order to fit the team and ultimately, win trophy's. If not, why the hell are we even here? Esports in general in still a young industry and we're still "working out the kinks". It's getting better by the day and by the month ... just gotta have an open mind to new and evolving principles.
2024-10-29 18:58
2
2 replies
Great convo, thank you mate. You know your stuff
2024-10-29 22:15
1
1 reply
Thanks for the conversation as well. Pleasure was all mine!
2024-10-31 13:34
0
TikTok brains finding the article too long is hilarious
2024-10-29 16:54
1
1 reply
some dont have time, some is not that much interested)
2024-10-29 18:15
0
aint reading allat
2024-10-29 18:24
0
@NER0cs Has there ever been any data analysis published that supports the idea of force buying in the second round? Do teams analyze things like this? Or for example when it statistically makes sense to save?
2024-10-29 22:44
0
#107
Faceit plus user  | 
 | 
Germany Morizon
stopped reading at advent
2024-10-30 01:16
0
Amazing article, good work
2024-10-30 15:59
0
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